[Jorg]

I'll try to explain my question:

Perhaps we have a 100kilo source with a headphone jack, and it's power is enough to drive such headphones as RS-1 or R10 (BTW, I've heard them both side-by-side recently and can post a review if needed). So the question is: what's the point to use an amplifier, if the power of the jack of the CDP is enough? One can't make the sound more detailed using an amplifier, so I think there are two answers:

1) There is no point to amplify.

2) Amplifing, you add a sonic signature to the sound and this sound becomes subjectively better (if you like the amplifier). I mean that amplifier helps you to change the sonic signature of headphones to better match your taste.

Which answer is correct in your opinion?

 

[guzzler]

1. amplifiers aren't about power, they are about quality. I could produce a 50W amp out of pieces of junk, and that would be blown away by a well made 10W amp...

2. use the search, this topic has been flogged to death

g

 

[bootman]

The problem is that many high end sources have no headphone jack,
let alone one that even come close to equaling a high end dedicated headphone amp!

It is now that high end pre-amps with high quality headphone jacks are becoming more common.
(ASL and Cary products come to mind.)


But you are correct that if a high end source had a worthy high end headphone jack,
then an amp could be considered optional.

(If you find such a source let us know!

)

 

[bootman]

Quote:

Originally posted by guzzler 2. use the search, this topic has been flogged to death g

While I'm a BIG advocate of the search function, to be fair the search here at Head-fi is not currently working.

 

[Wmcmanus]

Consistent with bootman's reply, I've been trying the headphone jack on the Shanling CD-T200 and have found it to be quite good. Many people do not realize that 2 of the 4 tubes on this player are for the headphone out stage, and with the Western Electric 396 tubes, it's offers a lot of sparkle. I've not done any A/B comparisons against headphone amps but will some day soon.

 

[Canman]

Either way you are still using an amplifier. You are talking about using the internal amplifier of the CD player. By using an external amplifier you are bypassing the internal amplifier and headphone jack of the CD player.

An external unit is likely to be of much higher quality. If you want to get the best out of your headphones, a high quality amp is needed. You can usually get enough power from a 50 cent circuit behind your headphone jack but it is going to sound not so good.

So in response to your question neither answer is correct. If you are trying to say that all amplifiers sound the same then that is not even worth arguing about. Likely, the amp inside your CD player adds more of a sonic signature than an external headphone amp. The less an amp degrades the sonic signal the better, IMO.

 

[bootman]

Quote:

Originally posted by Wmcmanus Consistent with bootman's reply, I've been trying the headphone jack on the Shanling CD-T200 and have found it to be quite good. Many people do not realize that 2 of the 4 tubes on this player are for the headphone out stage, and with the Western Electric 396 tubes, it's offers a lot of sparkle. I've not done any A/B comparisons against headphone amps but will some day soon.

Very nice example.

 

[Jorg]

Quote:

Originally posted by Canman Either way you are still using an amplifier. You are talking about using the internal amplifier of the CD player. By using an external amplifier you are bypassing the internal amplifier and headphone jack of the CD player. An external unit is likely to be of much higher quality. If you want to get the best out of your headphones, a high quality amp is needed. You can usually get enough power from a 50 cent circuit behind your headphone jack but it is going to sound not so good. So in response to your question neither answer is correct. If you are trying to say that all amplifiers sound the same then that is not even worth arguing about. Likely, the amp inside your CD player adds more of a sonic signature than an external headphone amp. The less an amp degrades the sonic signal the better, IMO.

Canman, read please my post carefully. I know that my English is not perfect, but I wrote a 100kilo source. It means that it amplification circuit is close to "ideal". And I don't see any words in my post that say that all amps sound the same.

Wmcmanus, indeed a nice example.

guzzler, again - 100kilo source...

bootman, your post adds some clarity to my question. I know some people with top-end sources that buy multi-kilo amps (like EAR HP-4) for grados to use with their sources. Thats waste of money IMO.

 

[guzzler]

the price of the system does not gaurentee the quality of the headphone output, which is often the main loudspeaker amp connected with resistors. Hard as it may be to believe, that headphone out was likely added as an afterthought, whereas any of the amps you see here are custom designed and tailored for headphone use.

g

 

[usc goose]

What is a 100kilo source exactly? A 100,000 dollar source? (i didn't know such things existed but hey, hi-end audio is a weird place)

 

[EyEPoD]

This is stupid. You just said you know all amps dont sound the same.

Tube amps sound very different than ss amps. An amp is an integral part of the system as a whole and needs to match properly with the sound of the source and the headphones/speakers.

 

[00940]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jorg I wrote a 100kilo source. It means that it amplification circuit is close to "ideal".

It doesn't mean anything actually. I don't which source exactly you're referring to (brand, model ?) but it's highly probable that most of the cost went to the design and implementation of the transport, DAC and analog output stage. To the points that actually interest people buying an high-end source.

Since an headphone amplifier doesn't have the same requirements than an analog output stage of a cdp, it has to be an addition. Internal or external. On the other hand, it's not an addition all the buyers are willing to pay for. Thus, if a company decides to integrate it into its products, it makes no sense for this company to make it the best possible, regardless of cost. And even if that company decided to make the best headamp ever, there are still problems. Designs philosophy for example. We could also speak of the highly varying impedance of the cans. It's not sure an amp wonderful for 16ohms can would be as happy with a 600oms load. Problems of different impedance, sensitivity, coloration and so on exist with headphones as they exist with speakers. Thus, it's not a good idea in my humble opinion to mate an headphone amp with your source. If I had this kind of cash, I'd prefer to pay a few thousand $ less for a source without amp and make my own choice.

This makes no sense of course if you believe that "perfect", distortion- and coloration- free sound exists. The straight wire with amplification is even more elusive than the Loch Ness monster.

 

[braillediver]

The problem is your pointing to a non-existent, hypothetical 100 Kilo source? High quality headphone outputs are probably the exception and not the norm. Wmcmanus seems to have a nice unit with an exceptional headphone output but this doesn’t seem to be commonplace.

Another problem is headphones aren’t speakers. Most amps are made to power speakers 4-8 ohms. Headphones are from 32-300 ohms. Most headphone amps are more like pre-amps than true amplifiers.

Blanket statements don’t work in any aspect of audio.

Headphone amps are not for everyone. You don’t specifically need one for any pair of headphones. Some people eat at McDonalds and some go to fine restaurants, some eat Top Ramen and some eat Spam. To each his own.

If you owned a nice Porsche or Ferrari would you put cheap tires on it and use cheap gas? Sure it would still get you around but would you get the performance that they are capable of? Some people drive Yugos?


Mitch aka Team Top Ramen

 

[Sovkiller]

Considering the variety of amps designed for headphones specifically, solid state, tubes, discrete, OPamps, hybrids, etc.... and the variety of preferences, among the members of this forum, I don't think that we will find a headphone amp inside any player in this round green world good enough to be considered as one size fits all, even we are still looking for that miracle, in the nice external amps we already have, ones will sound good with a Grado, and later on bad with a Sennheiser.....And even if they sound good with both, later one one may find it bright, and the other dark, and maybe one wants more details, and others will not like them because it is harsh....etc, etc, etc....this is the endless debate here....
My suggestion, try it for yourself and determine if it is worth to invest on it or not, or if you consider the difference you will hear good enough to justify to invest on that....great......but if I would have a 100kilo source, honestly I would sell it for a good chunk of green bills, I would get other stuff I currently need, and later on a modest audio system, a way under that price, and I think, that I still will enjoy the music............................BTW with 100kilo I will make the band play in front of me, and period.....don't you think???

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally posted by braillediver Some people eat at McDonald's and some go to fine restaurants, some eat Top Ramen and some eat Spam. To each his own. Mitch aka Team Top Ramen

I do not see anything wrong in any of those options above BTW, I like them all.....

I think is more to use each in the right ocassion....Nobody will spend New Year's Eve at Mac Donald's, but nobody eats lunch everyday in the middle of the working shift on a nice restaurant neither, unless a chef of course....