Why 24 bit audio and anything over 48k is not only worthless, but bad for music.
Oct 27, 2017 at 10:56 AM Post #2,356 of 3,525
Except for the last quoted sentence, I feel you're ignoring the actual practicalities/reality. Yes, a close mic'ed snare drum rimshot for example might produce a very high level, there are very low noise floor studios in the world and in theory you might be able to exceed 96dB dynamic range with a violin (not sure it wouldn't be a challenge though). BUT, even if you did have an exceptionally low noise floor live room, it's not so low a noise floor once you put musicians in there. In the case of say a rimshot or drum hit, the noise floor picked-up by that close mic is effectively incredibly high because a drum hit/rimshot typically does not occur in complete isolation, there would be spill from other instruments in the drum kit and typically we never use just a close mic, because it doesn't give a desirable/aesthetically pleasing result. In the case of a violin, the only way I can imagine of potentially exceeding 96dB dynamic range would be to very close mic it but again, in practise that is very undesirable.

In theory I'm sure you know what you're talking about but I don't know in practise, I've never tried it because it's either not possible in practise or it's aesthetically undesirable. Mics are chosen for their sonic characteristics, noise floor is only one of those characteristics and typically not the characteristic of primary concern and the same is sometimes true of the mic pre-amp. In other words, if my only goal as a recording engineer were to achieve the highest possible dynamic range, then maybe 16bit would in some cases not be enough but that is not my only goal in reality, in fact, it's quite a long way down the list of goals.

G

EDIT: "none of which actually have true 24 bit noise performance (except for one)." - There's one which does, how is that possible? Can you let me know which one or give me a link please, I'd like to read up on it.
I absolutely recognize that my example was more theoretical than practical. My point was to refute that mic self noise and preamp noise was the limiting factor.

The manufacturer was Stagetec, http://www.stagetec.com/en/

They made a stand alone interface that used an ADC array/cascade that could do a real 144dB DR. I don't see it in their current product line up, and the current ADC isn't quite as good. They proposed an application where any input level, mic through line, could be handled without preamp gain adjustments. The current products look focused on large systems.
 
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Oct 27, 2017 at 12:59 PM Post #2,357 of 3,525
What you speak of, is adding to the recording, which is a form of distortion.

Yes I absolutely agree if you're using the term "distortion" in a non pejorative way. Any alteration of the signal is distortion. In the strictest sense, it's distortion for an engineer to apply EQ or reverb, or even to adjust balances in a mix. Anything that alters the signal is technically defined as distortion. But distortion isn't necessarily something bad. It can be a tool for improving sound and a method to better present the music. No engineer expects his mix to be played in the home in a dead room. The point of the mix is to come up with something that works for a range of different presentations. They may have tried to minimize room acoustics in the studio, but that doesn't mean that they don't intend for there to be room acoustics in home playback. Some forms of distortion actually *correct* error, like the timing calculations done by an AVR when you input the distances of the various speakers to the listening position. The distortion created by DSPs can actually improve the sound beyond what was heard by the engineers when the music was being mixed.

"Random distortion"... or "unwanted distortion" is a bad thing. But signal processing, even acoustic signal processing caused by mechanical means (room acoustics, horn loaded speakers, acoustic panels, etc.) can be a very good thing. When I first started out in the hobby back in the early 70s, I was fighting distortion from all sides- inner groove distortion, harmonic distortion, wow and flutter, record wear, rumble, noise, etc.- but today, most of those demons have been tamed. Reducing distortion in digital audio even further isn't likely to make any audible difference at all. The whole "purity of sound" theory in home audio is obsolete. Digital sound is as pure as human ears can detect. We don't have to keep splitting the atom to reduce inaudible distortion. No point to it. However, we can *use* distortion in the form of *signal processing* to make a huge improvement on perceived sound quality and fidelity.

The future of audiophile sound lies in signal processing. We've barely begun to tap into the possibilities.
 
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Oct 28, 2017 at 7:36 AM Post #2,359 of 3,525
[1] They may have tried to minimize room acoustics in the studio, but that doesn't mean that they don't intend for there to be room acoustics in home playback.
[2] Some forms of distortion actually *correct* error, like the timing calculations done by an AVR when you input the distances of the various speakers to the listening position.
[3] The distortion created by DSPs can actually improve the sound beyond what was heard by the engineers when the music was being mixed.
[3a] The best part of speakers is that there is a *natural* coloration to a real world installation that actually *enhances* the sound of the recording. In this case coloration is a good thing. I know a lot of people think good sound is just the sound, nothing but the sound, but with humans that isn't true. We want *present* sound- meaning it sounds like the music is in the room with us.

In general I agree with your post but there are a few points I disagree with:
1. No, this is virtually never the case. In TV/Film we tend to use more absorption to reduce room acoustics but never minimise them. The philosophy of music studio design is quite different though, typically with much less absorption and much more diffusion. In music production/mastering, room acoustics are therefore not minimised much beyond the average home environment but they are randomised to (hopefully) achieve a reasonably flat, neutral acoustic.
2. Yes but in this case what's being corrected is your personal speaker position. The ideal goal is to add a distortion which cancels out the distortion of speaker positioning, resulting in a distortion-less reproduction of the recording.
3. Now this is a dangerous assertion which falls within audiophile myth/misrepresentation! As far as fidelity is concerned, you CANNOT improve what was heard by the artists/engineers in the studio! You can of course change it, according to your personal tastes but what you end up with is lower fidelity, which is not an improvement, it's just a better match to your personal preference. IMO, it's very important to make this distinction, because much of the misleading audiophile marketing and myth is based on perverting this distinction. Effectively selling a preference as a higher fidelity improvement.
3a. This is essentially the same as point #3. The recording was released with the "natural colouration" of real world speaker installation and the human factor ALREADY baked in! It was mixed and adjusted on speakers by humans, according to their human perception and subjective opinion. It therefore already contains the exact amount of "present sound" intended and adding more colouration to compensate for "humans" is effectively double compensating. Now, maybe your subjective opinion differs to those of the artists and in my case it frequently does, I often feel that I would have done something somewhat differently, but I still want to hear what the artists themselves did. I don't want my system to automatically apply some adjustment to maybe more closely match my subjective preference/opinion, I want to hear those artists' preference/opinion.

[1] If you do not play above 90db, in pure technical terms, it should be all there, at 16bit.
[1a] If there is an audible difference, and sure, that might be the case, what is causing it?
[2] There is also a ton of added distortion, for non-"dry rooms". Why this need for this super accurate rendering then?
[3] That something is complex, is not proof of much. But if it is complex, then it is not simple. ... What is expected, currently, with the results at hand, is that positional accuracy, as done by hearing, will correlate with the findings of the bounds discovered thus far. But that is for the simple stuff. There might be combination of variables, or complexity, that suddenly reveals a different result, as a result of how the brain and senses work. Until that is a known, it will remain an unknown.
[4] People also need to realize, that hardly any, if any, theory in physics is proven. They are just not proven false...

1. Assuming noise-shaped dither, which is standard practise, then we're talking more in the range of 120dB, not 90dB AND, that figure is the figure above the noise floor of your listening environment, which is probably around 20dB (with headphones) or >30dB with speakers. Therefore, your statement should be "if you do not play above 140dB it should all be there at 16bit". Can your headphones actually output 140dB? If not, any talk of audibility is irrelevant because you obviously cannot hear what your equipment is not producing in the first place. I don't know of any headphones which can but let's say there are some, now we can talk about audibility and then we run into another even more serious problem, 140dB is well beyond the threshold of pain and well into the range of serious permanent hearing damage. These two factors, producing headphones with 140dB output and what it would do to you if you actually tried to listen to such an output, is why we don't need more than 16bit!
1a. A range of potential factors: A fault or deliberate design choice by a DAC manufacturer or in many cases, placebo or comparing different versions/masters.
2. No, music recordings are not made in dry rooms or designed for playback in dry rooms, as I explained above.
3. You are confusing two, effectively unrelated factors. One factor is the container format (16/44 or 48), the other factor is what we choose to put into that container. As an analogy, let's say that the container is a plate and what we choose to put on that plate is food. As far as the food is concerned, we don't fully understand the perception of taste. A plate only has two things to worry about though; not adding it's own flavour to the food and being big enough to contain any amount of food one person could eat. Provided the plate achieves these two requirements, the perception of taste and our understanding of it is completely irrelevant as far as the plate is concerned. It is of course entirely relevant to the food we put on the plate but that's a human choice, a factor unrelated to the plate itself. 16/44 is already a plate which is far bigger than could ever be required, how would a plate another 100 times bigger improve the food? And as far as adding it's own flavour is concerned ...
4. We're not talking about theories of physics. We're talking about proven mathematics, which you have been supplied with, mathematics which prove, using the analogy above, that the plate does NOT add it's own flavour. The difficulty was the implementation of that proven maths with technology/engineering but this difficulty has to be put into context. Even in the earliest days of consumer digital audio this "difficulty" was relatively (though not entirely), audibly insignificant but the astounding advances in digital technology in the last 30+ years means that not only are we way past any notion of audible significance but we can achieve this feat at astoundingly low cost, about $1.50 trade price for such a DAC chip. That doesn't mean that all DACs are audibly perfect because of course it's up to the individual DAC manufacturer how they choose to implement that proven math, whether they choose to go down the proven route of cheap, effectively perfect audio or take the different route of imperfect audio in order to differentiate their product.

[1] I really like this post. It falls inline with my impression of how musicians typically work.
[2] Noise Reduction is used in post, if a mic picks up too much noise. Many find this a non-issue.
[3] As for math, high res recordings should sound as low res, but not in my case.

1. You say that but it's completely contrary to your previous assertion, of recording everything in mono with minimised acoustics. I presume you've seen for example how a drummer typically works? Have you ever seen a drummer record the snare drum in mono, then record the kick drum in mono, then the hi-hats, then each of the toms, then each of the cymbals? No, that's both impractical and undesirable aesthetically. They play the whole drum kit in one go, it's recorded both with spot mics on some of the instruments and in stereo and often with a room mic, and then this is all mixed together in stereo, for an aesthetically pleasing result. Essentially classical music ensembles are recorded similarly and so are most other genres of acoustic music. Additionally, minimising acoustics is particularly preposterous because all acoustic instruments rely on acoustics, in some cases entirely! For example, an audience never hears the direct sound of a french horn, the bell of the instrument is pointed towards the rear wall of the concert venue and the audience only ever hears the reflections. Recording the direct sound and minimising the reflections/acoustics would result in something quite different to the expected/desired french horn sound.
2. NR is routine practise in Film/TV, in fact you'd be hard pressed to find any TV/Film without NR but not so in music. NR cannot perfectly differentiate noise from signal because the difference is essentially a human perception. Removing noise also damages the signal to some degree and is therefore avoided.
3. If it really is not just a trick of your perception (placebo) and providing you are not inadvertently comparing different versions/masters, then the only explanation is either that your DAC has been deliberately designed not to audibly perfectly implement the math for 16/44, or the higher sample rates contain ultra-sonic frequencies which are causing audible inter-modulation distortion downstream from your DAC.

I absolutely recognize that my example was more theoretical than practical. My point was to refute that mic self noise and preamp noise was the limiting factor.

Not sure I understand, because in practice mic self noise and pre-amp noise often are the limiting factor or certainly contributory, along with the noise floor of the environment.

G
 
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Oct 28, 2017 at 1:30 PM Post #2,360 of 3,525
I have the big Toscanini box set. The recordings were all recorded in mono in studio 8H in New York. The room was too small to have much ambience, so the recordings are a bit dead sounding. When I run them through a DSP that simulates the Berlin Philharmonic hall, not only does the sound bloom into a proper hall ambience, it creates a sound that is passable as stereo. The difference between the sound of the original recordings and the processed playback is stark. Not subtle at all. And it's undeniably a huge improvement. Back in the day, they didn't have digital reverbs and multichannel sound. If they had, they certainly would have used it. Engineers are human. They work within restraints and make mistakes just like anyone else. If I can improve upon what they did, I sure will.

If people want to achieve really great sound, they have to be open to multichannel processing. A synthesized 5.1 DSP might not make something sound as good as discrete 5.1, but it can certainly make stereo and mono sound a lot better. Multichannel processing is the next step in audiophile sound. It's ironic that home theater people who don't care as much about natural sound ambiences are the ones embracing multichannel DSPs, while audiophiles continue with the religion of "inerrant word of God" when it comes to not applying the technology where it could do the most good.

The bread provides its own flavor to a sandwich while still containing the meat and lettuce. It's the same with ice cream cones, tortillas on a taco, icing on a birthday cake,.. and a room.
 
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Oct 28, 2017 at 4:49 PM Post #2,361 of 3,525
I have the big Toscanini box set. The recordings were all recorded in mono in studio 8H in New York. The room was too small to have much ambience, so the recordings are a bit dead sounding. When I run them through a DSP that simulates the Berlin Philharmonic hall, not only does the sound bloom into a proper hall ambience, it creates a sound that is passable as stereo. The difference between the sound of the original recordings and the processed playback is stark. Not subtle at all. And it's undeniably a huge improvement. Back in the day, they didn't have digital reverbs and multichannel sound. If they had, they certainly would have used it. Engineers are human. They work within restraints and make mistakes just like anyone else. If I can improve upon what they did, I sure will.

If people want to achieve really great sound, they have to be open to multichannel processing. A synthesized 5.1 DSP might not make something sound as good as discrete 5.1, but it can certainly make stereo and mono sound a lot better. Multichannel processing is the next step in audiophile sound. It's ironic that home theater people who don't care as much about natural sound ambiences are the ones embracing multichannel DSPs, while audiophiles continue with the religion of "inerrant word of God" when it comes to not applying the technology where it could do the most good.

The bread provides its own flavor to a sandwich while still containing the meat and lettuce. It's the same with ice cream cones, tortillas on a taco, icing on a birthday cake,.. and a room.

While I wouldn't go as far as simulating a huge hall, I do agree that that is a fun venture!
Lots of things to explore!!
 
Oct 28, 2017 at 5:01 PM Post #2,362 of 3,525
Not sure I understand, because in practice mic self noise and pre-amp noise often are the limiting factor or certainly contributory, along with the noise floor of the environment.

G

I was responding to this from Post 128, "The physics and math in this case, simply means that there is not enough resolution by the mic, to out resolve 16bit. " The example of a Rode NT1A into a quiet mic pre recording high SPL signals, as high as possible without clipping the microphone's built in preamp, and with mic preamp gain set for optimum (like matching it's clip point to that of the mic), and reducing preamp gain to the minimum required, the final output DR could exceed 16 bits, more like 20+. In practice you can hardly ever do exactly that, and room noise gets in the way, but it can actually be done, and the DR of that mic is greater than 16 bits, as is the DR of some other mics. But that's why it's a theoretical example. There are relatively few mics as quiet and high output as an NT1A, most are 15-20dB noisier. And, as I alluded to, we don't usually pick mics based only on their self noise. And the point was to show that some mics have plenty of "resolution", actually DR, to max out 16 bits, even though it's not done in practice.
 
Oct 28, 2017 at 6:34 PM Post #2,363 of 3,525
While I wouldn't go as far as simulating a huge hall, I do agree that that is a fun venture!
Lots of things to explore!!

I just wish AVR's had a standard plugin architecture so I wouldn't be limited to just the DSPs that came with my receiver.
 
Oct 30, 2017 at 4:09 AM Post #2,364 of 3,525
I have the big Toscanini box set. The recordings were all recorded in mono in studio 8H in New York.
[1] The room was too small to have much ambience, so the recordings are a bit dead sounding.
[2] When I run them through a DSP that simulates the Berlin Philharmonic hall, not only does the sound bloom into a proper hall ambience, it creates a sound that is passable as stereo. The difference between the sound of the original recordings and the processed playback is stark. Not subtle at all.
[3] And it's undeniably a huge improvement.
[4] Back in the day, they didn't have digital reverbs and multichannel sound. If they had, they certainly would have used it.
[4a] Engineers are human. They work within restraints and make mistakes just like anyone else.
[4b] If I can improve upon what they did, I sure will.

1. The room couldn't have been too small to have much ambience. Even very small rooms can have considerable ambience but the room obviously had to be fairly large in order for a symphony orchestra to even get in.
2. OK, so you're deliberately and very significantly changing how the recordings were designed to be heard.
3. You can by all means state that this very significant change you've applied sounds hugely better to you but you cannot state with any certainty that it is an improvement and you definitely cannot state it's an undeniable improvement.
4. And maybe today, Mozart would have composed for synths rather than for an orchestra but we don't know. What we do know is that they did what THEY thought was best with the resources they had available.
4a. But what the engineers did was approved, unless there was a fault at the pressing plant but usually even that would be picked up quite quickly.
4b. It's entirely up to you how you want to playback your recordings but all you're doing by very significantly changing the playback is satisfying your personal tastes, you are not necessarily "improving" anything. Admittedly, with such old recordings we cannot be sure what (freq content, etc.) has been lost in the storage and transfer and on a modern system we cannot be sure what it was intended to originally sound like on a shellac disk through a gramophone horn. Maybe there would have appeared to be more ambience and reverb when originally played back or maybe they intended it to sound drier than we're accustomed to today, for some artistic reason, in which case your "improvement" might be the exact opposite of the musical intention.

You appear to repeatedly make incorrect assertions about recording studios and acoustics and, about making improvements to recording playback when you have no idea whether it's an improvement or not. We have to be careful of this, particularly in the sound science forum and particularly because it's the root of so many audiophile evils. I have no objection to you playing back your music however suits you preferences, I just object to you automatically labelling it an improvement and object even more strongly to you calling it an "undeniable improvement". Just call it what it is; poorer fidelity but better relative to your preferences/tastes. If you're not willing to do this, then you can't complain when audiophile manufacturers market their products in exactly the same way!

G
 
Oct 30, 2017 at 11:27 AM Post #2,365 of 3,525
Look up the Toscanini Studio 8H recordings if you aren't familiar with them. They're infamous for their cramped, boxy sound. If you aren't familiar with them, I can understand how you wouldn't understand what I'm talking about.
 
Oct 31, 2017 at 5:38 AM Post #2,366 of 3,525
Look up the Toscanini Studio 8H recordings if you aren't familiar with them. They're infamous for their cramped, boxy sound. If you aren't familiar with them, I can understand how you wouldn't understand what I'm talking about.

You seem to be completely missing my point. Those recordings may very well be relatively poor, cramped and boxy but that is what was created by the artists, engineers and approved by Toscanini. If I were to listen to those recordings, I want to hear what was created and approved by Toscanini, warts and all. That's my preference though and you are entitled to change what Toscanini created/approved more towards your personal taste BUT, that change is therefore an "improvement" only in terms of your (and others') preference NOT in terms of fidelity, which is you've lowered rather than improved. Confusing an improvement towards personal preference with an actual improvement in fidelity is exactly the tactic used in many audiophile marketing materials, which I've seen you justly rail against on many occasions!

G
 
Oct 31, 2017 at 6:27 AM Post #2,367 of 3,525
You seem to be completely missing my point. Those recordings may very well be relatively poor, cramped and boxy but that is what was created by the artists, engineers and approved by Toscanini. If I were to listen to those recordings, I want to hear what was created and approved by Toscanini, warts and all. That's my preference though and you are entitled to change what Toscanini created/approved more towards your personal taste BUT, that change is therefore an "improvement" only in terms of your (and others') preference NOT in terms of fidelity, which is you've lowered rather than improved. Confusing an improvement towards personal preference with an actual improvement in fidelity is exactly the tactic used in many audiophile marketing materials, which I've seen you justly rail against on many occasions!

G
Toscanini approved yes, but did he do it because he thought it is perfect or did he approve because they did their best and he had no choice? What would Toscanini say about what bigshot does? Changes are he would approve it. Historical recordings are often so bad in technical quality on our standards, that almost anything is an improvement.
 
Oct 31, 2017 at 8:43 AM Post #2,368 of 3,525
Toscanini approved yes, but did he do it because he thought it is perfect or did he approve because they did their best and he had no choice?

Yes, with such old recordings chances are that Toscanini would be delighted by modern technology but maybe he'll still have wanted a much drier recording than bigshot does? Pre-WWII recordings are of course the most extreme example, which is presumably why bigshot chose it, but even with these most extreme examples, there's still an argument for hearing what the artists/engineers created, an argument which becomes stronger as we progress beyond WWII, into the age of stereo and much higher quality technology.

G
 

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