[Taikero]

I would say (in no particular order) X10, PFE, ER4S. I would probably say the X10 and PFE would have to battle it out for a consensus on sound appeal. The ER4S is unarguably the best for sound reproduction, but it's not going to give the same enjoyment the X10/PFE will.

 

[mvw2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoLTaG3 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Balanced Armature drivers always will share the same drawback. They can only excel either in the HIGHS or the LOWS. An example is if a driver does really good with BASS it will not do that great with HIGHS. It's like trying to make subwoofers play classical music or trying to make tweeters run BASS tests. The most you can do with one driver is get it where the whole sound spectrum is played at a decent level where no one frequency excels another.

Balanced armature, dynamic driver, head-fi, car-fi, home-fi, it all works about the same. You build a mechanical device that works really well over part of the hearable spectrum. Sometimes you do things to extend the response, but most of the time you just make a wide band device that sounds like it's stretching its luck.

The better option is ALWAYS multiple drivers. Run 2-way or 3-way to correctly and easily cover the entire spectrum. Things simplify way down to just x-over choice and level balancing. It's just that in head-fi, we have a problem with bulk, so manufacturers push the single driver design the best they can. Many dynamic phones are stuck somewhere in the middle, rolling off above 10kHz and below 40Hz. Head Direct's RE0 is a good example of getting a WIDE response out of a single dynamic driver pushing 20Hz and +15kHz well. I haven't experienced better range, and bass extension is as good as a BA. However, it sounds like a wide band driver up top, extending very high but dropping in accuracy and definition of information. The Phonak PFE is a very good BA. The bass is extended and the top end, albeit wavy, extends high within +/-5dB. It does well and could even excel with a little EQing work on the top. They made the single BA work well. However, in both cases, a 2-way configuration with more specialized drivers would spank both. Yet, there are price and size concerns with this approach.

 

[VoLTaG3]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvw2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Balanced armature, [size=medium]dynamic driver[/size], head-fi, car-fi, home-fi, it all works about the same. You build a mechanical device that works really well over part of the hearable spectrum. Sometimes you do things to extend the response, but most of the time you just make a wide band device that sounds like it's stretching its luck. The better option is ALWAYS multiple drivers. Run 2-way or 3-way to correctly and easily cover the entire spectrum. Things simplify way down to just x-over choice and level balancing. It's just that in head-fi, we have a problem with bulk, so manufacturers push the single driver design the best they can. Many dynamic phones are stuck somewhere in the middle, rolling off above 10kHz and below 40Hz. Head Direct's RE0 is a good example of getting a WIDE response out of a single dynamic driver pushing 20Hz and +15kHz well. I haven't experienced better range, and bass extension is as good as a BA. However, it sounds like a wide band driver up top, extending very high but dropping in accuracy and definition of information. The Phonak PFE is a very good BA. The bass is extended and the top end, albeit wavy, extends high within +/-5dB. It does well and could even excel with a little EQing work on the top. They made the single BA work well. However, in both cases, a 2-way configuration with more specialized drivers would spank both. Yet, there are price and size concerns with this approach.

So are you saying the Sennheiser HD800's will have it's drawbacks being that it is $1,500 it shouldn't. Anyways I've heard they have a patented design in their drivers that makes it where it can excel in the HIGHS and the LOWS.

 

[EFN]

For 18 years, Etymotic ER-4 has set the benchmark for hand matched single balanced armature drivers.

It is for a fact that they sacrificed bottom end presence for analytical highs, transparent mids, electrostatic like speed and pristine clarity. BUT there is no such thing as the best audio gear without the support of matching companions - synergy is the key. For 3 years I have been doggedly faithful to my ER-4 and it wasn't a pleasant experience to me for the first six months when I first listened to them. Not until I managed to find the right source and amplification.

With a simple tweak (read EQing), the ER-4 can transform itself into an extremely well balanced neutral sounding performer. Very high quality bass extension is already there, and with proper source matching and amplification, bass presence and texture kicks in favorably. So does the headstage improve.

In this regard, ER-4 is not a versatile IEM at all. But if you don't mind with the hassle of finding and matching suitable source, I'd say they are unbeatable in delivering sonic bliss - directly pumped into your ears.

 

[krmathis]

Apple...

 

[average_joe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by astroid /img/forum/go_quote.gif Earphone testing is very tricky, volume matching is important and by the time you have got it matched its practically impossible to remember what the last one sounded like. The only way i have been able to a-b a headphone is to concentrate on specific instruments within a piece and make notes. I think big differences become apparent over time.

I know from first hand experience, where i have a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b ed them

And my review on the IE8 vs. PFE is a result of my notes. I did post the general notes on various songs. And you are right, the differences did become very noticeable to me over time, even when I wasn't a/b ing them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoLTaG3 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Balanced Armature drivers always will share the same drawback. They can only excel either in the HIGHS or the LOWS. An example is if a driver does really good with BASS it will not do that great with HIGHS. It's like trying to make subwoofers play classical music or trying to make tweeters run BASS tests. The most you can do with one driver is get it where the whole sound spectrum is played at a decent level where no one frequency excels another.

The PFEs do a very good job producing the entire spectrum in detail and cleanly, it is just naturally (without the filters), they are very treble/upper mid heavy. Their lows excelled at the same time, just at a lower amplitude, hence the filters.

I am not sure if they could tune the enclosure for more bass quantity, but with the grey filters they are excellent if one doesn't mind a recessed, yet very present, detailed, and powerful bass.

And to answer the question some people might have reading the above statement, the bass is powerful, deep, and still detailed at louder volumes, even with the grey filters, but it is recessed in comparison to the mids/highs. Hope that makes sense.

 

[average_joe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvw2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The better option is ALWAYS multiple drivers.

Some W3 owners (and other multi-driver IEMS) will not agree with this; see the PFE threads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvw2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Many dynamic phones are stuck somewhere in the middle, rolling off above 10kHz and below 40Hz. Head Direct's RE0 is a good example of getting a WIDE response out of a single dynamic driver pushing 20Hz and +15kHz well. I haven't experienced better range, and bass extension is as good as a BA. However, it sounds like a wide band driver up top, extending very high but dropping in accuracy and definition of information. The Phonak PFE is a very good BA. The bass is extended and the top end, albeit wavy, extends high within +/-5dB. It does well and could even excel with a little EQing work on the top. They made the single BA work well. However, in both cases, a 2-way configuration with more specialized drivers would spank both. Yet, there are price and size concerns with this approach.

I just tested my fully burned in IE8...I can hear 20 Hz as loud as I can hear 40 Hz, and can hear down to 18 with only a slightly lower amplitude, and can sense something at 16 Hz. On the high side, 15KHz seems to have the same volume as 10KHz, and I can hear to 17KHz clearly, but recessed.

Not to mention the detail produced at the same time.

 

[mvw2]

But it's still a wide band. I haven't listened to the IE8, so I can't comment on them directly. No one has done frequency response and distortion tests on it, so again, there's no info stating what it does well. We are left with user comments/reviews.

I can say the same about the RE0. 20Hz and 15kHz was there too. It's a really good wide band driver. However, sound being there and sound correctly being there are two different things. An example in home audio would be the common use of a small 3" or 4" wide band driver in a compact satellite design. Ported, they can offer quite a wide bandwidth. For example a Jordon JX92S in a ported enclosure will output from 40Hz to 20kHz within +/-5dB, better with a little EQing. However, just because the frequency range is covered doesn't mean it's covered well, or I should say as well as a multi-driver system.

The RE0 and IE8 do make good use of a single driver. However, you have to ask yourself is the quality of the information presented as good at 20Hz or 40Hz and 12kHz or 15kHz as good as at 500Hz or 2kHz? Is it as accurate and without noticeable distortion everywhere? I can't comment about the IE8, but the RE0, I can say no. The top end, albeit present, did lack accuracy and definition of the information presented. Because I have not heard the IE8, I can only speculate. However, physics and history lean me towards the idea that there will always be a compromise in a system that is limited to one driver. Still, great implementation will yield great sound. Yet, to say it's as good as a multi-driver system is stretching it.

The HD800, a different scale, a different price. Still, you're bound by what you can make work. Frequency response is there, 14Hz - 44kHz within 3dB. What about distortion? If it is amazing, I'd love to see a BL, CMS, and Le curve of it showing amazing linearity. I'd love to see a frequency response plot and distortion plots through the frequency spectrum. Show me now amazing it is over the entire range.

Am I saying it can't be done? No. I'm just saying generally multi-driver wins. It's an easier approach, many drivers that excel over a narrow bandwidth paired together to excel over the entire frequency spectrum.

The closest thing I've ever seen to actual IEM testing:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...07-part-1.html

I'd love to see more.

 

[FrederikS|TPU]

Sleek-Audio Customs sound really good, I like the custom version a bit better than the SA6s which are also very good. Otherwise there is the Klipsch X10s which are really nice and lush. Etymotic ER4-P/S are likewise at the top of their game, but they are analytical and frankfully a bit bland to listen to.

 

[moseboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvw2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Am I saying it can't be done? No. I'm just saying generally multi-driver wins. It's an easier approach, many drivers that excel over a narrow bandwidth paired together to excel over the entire frequency spectrum.

Wow, I can't believe you just said that. Easy? You think having more drivers is easy??? Talk to Westone or any of the other multi-BA earphone makers and let them tell you how "easy" it is to make a crossover. Short answer from me? It's not, and that's why not all of them sound as pleasing/natural as other single BA earphones.

 

[VoLTaG3]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moseboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wow, I can't believe you just said that. Easy? You think having more drivers is easy??? Talk to Westone or any of the other multi-BA earphone makers and let them tell you how "easy" it is to make a crossover. Short answer from me? It's not, and that's why not all of them sound as pleasing/natural as other single BA earphones.

Shure made their crossover geared toward MIDRANGE. All 3 drivers in the SE530's help reproduce the unbeatable, lush, clear midrange.

 

[ottoyu34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moseboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wow, I can't believe you just said that. Easy? You think having more drivers is easy??? Talk to Westone or any of the other multi-BA earphone makers and let them tell you how "easy" it is to make a crossover. Short answer from me? It's not, and that's why not all of them sound as pleasing/natural as other single BA earphones.

Also in reality, the cost of making the IEM and cost of R&D is in count.

otto

 

[mvw2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moseboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wow, I can't believe you just said that. Easy? You think having more drivers is easy??? Talk to Westone or any of the other multi-BA earphone makers and let them tell you how "easy" it is to make a crossover. Short answer from me? It's not, and that's why not all of them sound as pleasing/natural as other single BA earphones.

Not easier in setup/integration, easier to get a better end sound because you're requirements per driver is over a narrower bandwidth. I should have clarified.

 

[moseboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvw2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Not easier in setup/integration, easier to get a better end sound because you're requirements per driver is over a narrower bandwidth. I should have clarified.

Yeah, so there's less stress on each driver, leading to a less chance of distortion for whatever reason you want to blow your brains out: I agree with that. But guess what: The frequency response for each driver doesn't all of a sudden hit a brick wall. There is some overlap between drivers, and it's hard as hell to get it just right. So beyond distortion,

the better option is NOT always multiple drivers.

 

[mvw2]

No, it pretty much is always. It's enough so to where you can get away using pretty crappy hardware over narrow bandwidths and approach the same quality of sound as much better engineered drivers in a lower multi-driver or single driver setup.

It's not a matter of stress so much unless you try to run too low and force the excursion issue. It's simply usable sensitivity and low distortion from linearity. It's kind of why there is no 3" driver on the planet that can play above 10kHz really well. Sensitivity may be there, but sound quality isn't. You can however simply add a 1" tweeter and get a better end result.

Yes crossovers are not sharp cutoffs, but that's why you overlap capability, well at least if you want easy blending. Even for a 5" midrange paired to a 1" tweeter crossed at 3kHz, I don't need that mid to perform much beyond the crossover point if I run a steep slope. If I'm 24dB down by 6kHz, I really don't care how it sound or performs above that. When you rely on a single driver, you rely on it's ability to sound good everywhere. That is quite a requirement, especially with head-fi where folks pretty much expect a headphone that can extend between 20Hz and 20kHz. That is just such a wide operating spectrum to pull off and to attempt to pull off very well. A multi-driver setup can always pull that off easier. It does however cost more to implement and is at the mercy of x-over and level balance setup.