[The Monkey]

I think this thread has run its course.

 

[AuroraProject]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teerawit You prefer the ER-4 over the UM2? I was considering getting the UM2 as a departure from the Ety line, but I guess I'll reconsider that! The Shure E4c seems to be fun only for portable use, when the utmost detail and clarity do not matter in portable situations. They're more engaging and would be good for use at the gym, etc. But I cannot leave the Ety sound and migrate permanently to the Shure sound. I appreciate the detail that the Etys deliver in the treble. E4 midrange seems alittle too exaggerated, but again for non-critical listening this may be better.

If you like the Ety sound then avoid the UM2's. I'm not thrilled with them at all, sure the bass is there, but the treble response is severely rolled off, far too much so for my tastes.

 

[some1x]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJGeorgeT that plot above makes sense to me. It shows that the base frequency is 1kHz and that you get second, third, fourth etc harmonic distortion and also some in between. In other words...if I were to feed in 1kHz at 0dB, I would not only get the fundamental component (1kHz), but also other components. harmonic distortion: In the output signal of a device, distortion caused by the presence of frequencies that are not present in the input signal

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJGeorgeT [size=xx-small]note: I added this graph, which is what you are referring to.[/size] well that graph that you are referring to from headroom showing the harmonic distortion of the ER4 has been disproven. First, it shows that the only harmonic distortion of concern is somewhere between 300 to 400 Hz (low frequency). Every other harmonic distortion is evenly spaced...just like in the shure's E3 case. Plus, that graph does not show anything special at the high end because it does not show the high end.

Same type of graph. Completely different interpretation

It should be clear that any component with IMD profile in the 2nd graph would be terrible. Your remarks about the second graph are baffling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJGeorgeT First, it shows that the only harmonic distortion of concern is somewhere between 300 to 400 Hz (low frequency).

The frequency is 500hz. This is the fundamental frequency (i.e. not distortion).

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJGeorgeT Every other harmonic distortion is evenly spaced...just like in the shure's E3 case.

Harmonics are multiples of the fundamental. Of course they would be evenly spaced

The problem is precisely that there are so many tall spikes; it is not a good thing that there are evenly distributed spikes

The E3c graph is here =489]http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCom...phID[]=489
Note that spikes corresponding to harmonic distortion are much smaller (several magnitudes smaller).
E3C: -75 -55 -82 -75 -85 -79 -81 -86
ER4: -55 -42 -79 -45 -61 -61 -75 -72

 

[ProleArtThreat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elephantman what? u speak for other ppl now? what makes u think audiophiles would choose ety over shure, ridiculous.

Ok people. Everyone needs to chill out. He never said "all audiophiles" or even "most audiophiles." He said "many audiophiles."

I think we should all agree to disagree. I personally do not feel there is any "fake detail" in the ER-4, but I cannot state that others are wrong for feeling that way. It's all subjective. For the record, I also happen to really like the Shure E4. I find them very detailed in a different way.

Why do IEM threads always end up this way?

 

[redshifter]

Quote:

Why do IEM threads always end up this way?

people just get passionate about the the things they stick in their canals.

 

[DJGeorgeT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by some1x The E3c graph is here =489]http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCom...phID[]=489 Note that spikes corresponding to harmonic distortion are much smaller (several magnitudes smaller). E3C: -75 -55 -82 -75 -85 -79 -81 -86 ER4: -55 -42 -79 -45 -61 -61 -75 -72

Read my explanation of what a harmonic distortion plot should look like and the information that should be contained in one. A good one should provide the base frequency, assumptions on measurements and an overall THD.

The E3 has severe high end roll off and very pronounced mids. This makes them unacceptable automatically to my ears. Their sound signature is unacceptable that is. A harmonic distortion profile won't tell you that.

Note: no matter what you use, there will always be harmonic distortion. The problem I have with some people here is that that ER4 harmonic profile is being used 'as a matter of factly' to diss the sound signature of the ER4. It shows utter ignorance.

 

[some1x]

Why don't you read your own explanation

The only difference between the IMD graph you posted and the Headroom graphs are in scale and cutoff.

You are defending from the wrong angle. If you questioned on the methods used to obtain the results, I wouldn't argue (again, I even stated in the original thread, 3 months ago, that I had doubts about the measurements). Instead, you presented a silly interpretation of the graph. Unless you have something new and meaningful to say, I am done with this thread.

edit: The fundamental frequency is 500hz (it is very obvious). The THD can be estimated from the graph.

 

[DJGeorgeT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by some1x edit: The fundamental frequency is 500hz (it is very obvious). The THD can be estimated from the graph.

yup, and I did make a mistake of not recognizing the first peak as the fundamental. I am so used to seeing the fundamental as the first point to the left of a profile. This is why it is nice to add the proper legend/comments to a plot with basic information such as base frequency, etc etc. That way there is no confusion. You as the presenter of that information should have faciliated that, but you prefer to be sloppy. Again, the profiles are only as good as the measurement techniques. You assume that the same measurement techniques were followed in obtaining the E3 harmonic profile and ER4 thus your direct comparison of the two. I would not assume that.

again, what's your point? That the etys sound bad? bleh shame on you for bringing harmonic plots into the discussion.

 

[DJGeorgeT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by redshifter people just get passionate about the the things they stick in their canals.

praising the etys causes the shure freaks nervous

 

[gerG]

Uh, what was the question...oh yeah:
Quote:

Originally Posted by darkninja67 Who else prefers the Etymotics over the Shures?

Me 2!

I love the sound of the ER4S. Although I sometimes want more deep bass, I find that the volume control usually solves that issue. The balance is quite pleasant otherwise. I am rather perplexed by the praise of the Ety detail, however. I have always found them to have a soft focus quality. Not bad, but I can do better with over the ear cans and an eq, or with (gasp) speakers.

As for Shures, the E2 were lackluster, and the E5 were just plain awful. I have been using the E3c for about a year (in the gym). Alone they are terrible, but adding a resistor turns on some treble response and makes them rather pleasant (it also fixes some of the ipod shy bass problem). I love the fit, although it took some getting used to. Hooked in deep with the cables over my ears and clipped to the back of my collar they physically disappear from my awareness during a workout. With the Etys I am always on guard for a canal-stretching wire snag.

I am very tempted by the E4. My main concern is the larger diameter. I want the fit of the E3, with the sound of the ER4S. Some extra first octave response would be nice as well. I will not be fooled by puffed-up faux bass in the second and third octaves, which seems to be the popular solution for bass-want.

I still hold out hope that Don is cooking up an improved ER4.


gerG

 

[Jasper994]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJGeorgeT Jaspertroll you are a hypocrite. and you keep comparing these full size cans with the etys right? Why not compare canalphones with canalphones? Apples with apples, Etymotic vs. Shures...I thought that was the original intent of this thread, etymotics and shure. You are so off and ridiculously unfocused. Of course there are better cans out there (full size ones). That said, etymotic does not create a fake detail. Maybe you need to get your hearing checked.

Okay buddy, why don't you try reading before making a reply. The point was that these very highly resolving headphones don't display the noise or whatever it is that some people seem to think is detail in the Etymotics. I thought it was clear enough, and that I could merely infer that the E4, E5 and the various other canal phones that I've had experiences with don't display this noise/distortion/detail/whatever-the-hell-you-want-to-call-it... I guess I have to spell it out for you. THE E2, E3, E4, E5, SUPER.FI 5 PRO, AND SUPER.FI 5 EB DO NOT HAVE THIS NOISE IN THE TREBLE REGION THAT I THINK MANY ARE MISTAKING FOR ADDED DETAIL. I do think the ER4 is highly resolving, but not more so that the E4, and E5. The E5 does have less treble detail, but overall detail is equal or better than the ER4 in my opinion. It is also my opinion that the E4 has more detail than the ER4 in that it has more accurate timbre and decay which I believe are part "detail". Other than this noise in the treble region, the ER4 does not, in my experiences, reproduce anything that the E4 does not. Instead, it misses some things that the E4 catches. YOUR MILAGE MAY VARY, but this is what I hear, and I am pretty sure that I am not alone in this feeling.

 

[Jasper994]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJGeorgeT praising the etys causes the shure freaks nervous

...and this is why you jump into every thread that's praising Shure earphones or Super.Fi earphones with "Etys are better... Etys are better!!!!"

Everybody's taste is different, get over it... Stop trying to bash the various people who don't hear things the same way you do. Sure, yeah, I chimed in with an opinion, but let's not forget who started trying to take pot shots at the people themselves.

 

[drarthurwells]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pablor ER-4s are fantastic phones in my opinion. But they are not an 'immediate satisfaction' phone for everyone. I think they are also more source dependent than many phones. When I first got my ER-4Ps, using them straight out of an iPod, I was very disappointed. They sounded tinny and weak - just didn't have the 'transcendent' quality I had been led to expect. I had read that they took some getting used to, so I decided to stick with them for a while. After some accustomization, I thought they sounded good with some of my music, but were just too much hassle. My PortaPros were once again my daily use phones. About six months later, I thought I should try them again, and was really impressed by how they sounded. So clear and detailed on the right music. But still really bad on others (especially rock). Still, I could forgive them because what sounded good sounded SO good. I ended up just listening to different music – more jazz and acoustic, where these babies really shine. I did buy a pair of Shure E4Cs, as I thought these might be a better all-round phone. Maybe they are, but I didn’t feel they gave significantly more ‘oomph’ to make it worth keeping them, and they didn’t have what I can only describe as that shimmering, silvery quality that the ER-4s have. I’ve spent a while using other cans, but I’ve recently rediscovered my Etys yet again. The reason this time is my SuperMacro amp (with switches). With this, the Etys enter another dimension. The impedance switch transforms the ER-4P to 4S for one thing. Then you have the bass boost… But even without these extra features, the improvement is nothing short of dramatic. The sound becomes fuller. Bass reaches deeper and has more impact. They sound richer and sweeter, no thinness or harshness at all. And their famous clarity is even, well, clearer. The detail is still there, but now supported by a solid foundation of bass. Their sound now is quite addictive to me. Everything sounds good – even rock, which pleases me no end as a bit of an old rocker. Sure, these phones have their flaws. Microphonics for one. But this is a small detail when the sound can be like this. The Shures didn’t have this, but I found the lack of a shirt clip a pain when you need to take them out temporarily to buy a subway ticket or whatever. I also find the Etys much easier to insert due to their long, straight design. So to cut a long story short (oops, too late...), these are rather quirky phones in some ways, but ca be so detailed and absorbing that it’s easy to forgive them their flaws. And paired with the right amp, they are simply magnificent. I enjoy my other phones a lot too, for very different reasons, but I think I will always come back to the Etys. They are perhaps the one phone I own that I will never let go of.

Very good analysis.

I think the Lehmann Black Cube linear amp takes the ETYs to another level of realism.

 

[setmenu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasper994 Hehehe maybe, but that really can't be so bad can it... From the few times I've listened to various Stax and the HE60 and from the time I auditioned some Martin Logans, I've gathered that the electrostatic sound is very delicate and warm. With the right kinds of music this can be truly marvelous... If I could afford it, I'd have a Stax setup just for when I listened to jazz. If you're used to the sound though, I could understand why it would be hard to get into something that was really dynamic with a lot of punch. In my experiences with the Etys, they have a much less punchy sound which would probably be a welcome thing if you normally listen to electrostats and are used to that type of a sound.

I guess all of us tend to use the familiar as a bench mark to some degree.
I am pretty comfortable with the sound of my Stax rig and enjoy it with
all kinds of music.
They may be a bit polite in the mids but on the other hand they do not harden
up and annoy me with an overly forward sound.
As I mention I never experience the brash mid effect with real life sounds,
which often seem far more in your face than any Stax presentation.

As for those ER4 'fake' details. the 'tink tink' really does seem to go away when
the highs are upped and the hot mids tamed .


Regarding the raw spec of a typical balanced armature transducer used in these
phones, check this out:

http://www.knowleselectronics.com/im...Issue%2004.pdf

If you dig around on the site there is plenty of data on tuning these to perform as needed.

Basically our IEMs are glorified [or simplified] hearing aids.

.

 

[ken36]

perfectly happy with the Shure signature for a year. Then on a whim bought the er-4s, only because so many swore by them. Sold Shures.