[grawk]

There are a significant number of people in pyramid schemes that make money. Does this mean that the people on the bottom who get screwed should be ignored?

 

[immtbiker]

This is true. In any pyramid structured business, the only hope that people on the bottom can have, is that soon, there will be a new bottom layer and they will move up to the next level where there's hope that their investment will pay off.

 

[Sherwood]

Most of the folks getting the short end of the stick here seem to be those with the most outlandish statement amps, though.

That would make SP more of a "Cone" scheme. That doesn't seem very structurally sound, to say the least.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by QQQ /img/forum/go_quote.gif Still everyone's claimed how great it sounds before they ever looked on the insides.

Yeah, that's what's most important to me -- how it looks on the inside. One time I was listening to one of my favorite albums on an amp I borrowed from a friend, but it sounded really harsh and shrill, with no bottom end, but then I looked inside, and it was beautifully constructed, so retroactively I decided the music sounded awesome.

Seriously, I am not suggesting one should entirely discount the quality of construction issue with any amps built by SP , but I find completely silly the notion that SP amps from back in the day sound like krap, and people were just duped, which they would not have been if only they had looked inside.

There is a serious problem with what Mikhail has done, but people keep extrapolating the problem to people, equipment, and areas that it doesn't involve.

EDIT: Agree 100% regarding keeping Mikhail out of the meet. That does seem like a no brainer.

 

[vvanrij]

True PhilS, however it is curious that some people may have suffered from the placebo affect, by 'having a great amp, a singlepower' and loving the sound, while they infact may have been listening to a beautifull box full of crap. I have no idea how the other SP's are built, its just that those pictures posted 4 pages ago, are showing some real crap imo (especially the power supply).

 

[QQQ]

Quote:

beautifull box full of crap

HI vvanrij!
The problem is the box even not beautiful. Looks like a amateur DIY. There's a lot of creations in DIY section which looks much better than SP.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vvanrij /img/forum/go_quote.gif True PhilS, however it is curious that some people may have suffered from the placebo affect, by 'having a great amp, a singlepower' and loving the sound, while they infact may have been listening to a beautifull box full of crap. I have no idea how the other SP's are built, its just that those pictures posted 4 pages ago, are showing some real crap imo (especially the power supply).

I understand the phenomenon of the placebo effect, and I don't deny its existence. What I categorically reject is the notion that the experienced audiophiles who purchased SP amps "back in the day" were duped into believing they sounded good when they did not. Perhaps a few listeners who bought some SP amps had their judgment colored by all the praise heaped upon the products. But I don't believe for a second that long-time and respected Head Fi-er's like Tom Hankins, sacdlover (Earl) and many of the others of that ilk were fooled at all.

Nor do I believe I have been duped. I know what my SP tube amp sounds like and I have listened to it and compared it with quite a few other amps over the past few years, and I am willing to accept for purposes of argument that if I opened it up it would look like spaghetti inside, or whatever. But it sounds great, and if it didn't, I have the financial wherewithal to replace it with something that costs 10 times as much without a moment's thought. And yet I still have it, and intend to keep it for a long time.

OJ, who is no doubt a murderer and a complete scumbag, was nevertheless a great running back in his day, and nothing he's done since changes that particular fact. Many or all of Mikhail's tube amps (I'll confine it to that for now) sounded and continue to sound awesome, and the fact that some of his construction techniques have been subject to criticism then and now, or the fact that he has ripped people off, does not change how the "good" amps sound.

 

[vvanrij]

Yes I get your point, and I didn't mean to offend anyone. Its just that if it then isn't placebo, and they really did/do sound good (while looking like crap inside), then maybe it doesn't matter that its crap inside? Afterall we buy it or listening pleasure. Don't get me wrong, for a product this price this is offcourse outragous, it just looks like it could have been done alot cheaper (from the looks of the photos)?

 

[grawk]

The problem is that he sent that amp back for specific changes, and upon opening the power supply, it became obvious that the specific changes weren't in fact done.

 

[mbd2884]

You know what I find upsetting? Its great you and a few others had a great experience with Mikhail's service and got units that sound great.

But you still imply that there are a few people who are not being truthful about their miserable experience. Even sounds as if you are saying that when people started having problems back in 2003, that those were fabricated. To me you are implying that others further back were lying about their experience and that Mikhail's lying and cheating is only a very recent event. Whereas I think more and more people are realizing that Mikhail's behavior can be traced back much further, and what others used to think were just fabrications were not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yeah, that's what's most important to me -- how it looks on the inside. One time I was listening to one of my favorite albums on an amp I borrowed from a friend, but it sounded really harsh and shrill, with no bottom end, but then I looked inside, and it was beautifully constructed, so retroactively I decided the music sounded awesome. Seriously, I am not suggesting one should entirely discount the quality of construction issue with any amps built by SP , but I find completely silly the notion that SP amps from back in the day sound like krap, and people were just duped, which they would not have been if only they had looked inside. There is a serious problem with what Mikhail has done, but people keep extrapolating the problem to people, equipment, and areas that it doesn't involve. EDIT: Agree 100% regarding keeping Mikhail out of the meet. That does seem like a no brainer.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vvanrij /img/forum/go_quote.gif Don't get me wrong, for a product this price this is offcourse outrageous, it just looks like it could have been done a lot cheaper (from the looks of the photos)?

Agree 100%. The "older" amps though were typically less expensive, unless you went for balanced or the top of the line amps. My Supra was only $1,500, or something like that, including the tubes, and I seem to recall that the PPX3 and the MPX (or whatever) were under $1K.

P.S. No offense taken.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbd2884 /img/forum/go_quote.gif You know what I find upsetting? Its great you and a few others had a great experience with Mikhail's service and got units that sound great. But you still imply that there are a few people who are not being truthful about their miserable experience. Even sounds as if you are saying that when people started having problems back in 2003, that those were fabricated. Just because you had such a great experience does not mean you should be belittling other people's intelligence and experiences. You should be just glad you did not have to suffer as so many others have. Just be glad that Mikhail sold you something he said he would and not some power source with wallwarts inside. Its this kind of continuous disbelief and slight implication that some people are exaggerating their awful experience that allows for some hope that a future customer will say, hey maybe it won't happen to me, but end up losing thousands and gain a lot of stress.

What are you talking about, my brother? It sounds like you have me confused with someone else.

I'm not implying anyone has not been truthful about their actual experience, I'm not suggesting that there were absolutely no problems back in 2003, and I'm not saying anyone who has personally experienced problems with Mikhail has exaggerated. And I haven't "belittled" anyone's intelligence. Frankly, I don't even know what you're talking about.

What I have said -- without repeating everything -- is that Mikhail's tube amps built back in the day sounded great and still do, and that this was not a matter of placebo. I've also suggested that, IMO, people are taking very legitimate concerns over this serious problem and extrapolating them to other areas -- which is human nature. (We've had suggestions in the past few pages that all of his amps had the walwart power supply -- which appears to be wrong -- and that other Head Fi-er's are somehow in league with Mikhail -- which appears to be ridiculous.) I've also made it clear several times that I think what Mikhail is doing is absolutely wrong, that this is a tragedy, and that he shouldn't be allowed to attend the international meet.

Please re-read what I've actually said, and if you have a problem with anything specific that I've said, let me know and I'll respond.

 

[AudioDwebe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyrion /img/forum/go_quote.gif The idea that Mikhail/SP should be permitted to show his wares at a meet because after all he hasn't screwed all his customers is one of the dumbest things I've read on HF in a while. The guy has so screwed so many people that he lost the right to use HF or a meet to market his products. Someone actually believes that he should be given a venue to try to secure more customers who may end up with a working amp and some that will not end up with a working amp based upon his latest antics? He has so abused the trust of this community that the fact that anyone would defend his actions at this point and his right to be at a meet is insulting to every member of this community he has abused. Let's not forget that there will be some that may attend these meets with the idea of confronting Mikhail. It would not be fair to the members or other exhibitors attending if such a confrontation turned ugly. I don't care if his next product sounds like angels licking my ears, I wouldn't go near it. If someone wants to give him a second chance, I have no problem with that but perhaps we should be sure he is taking care of those that have not been satisfied before we begin that discussion.

Why does the idea have to be "dumb"? Why couldn't you just disagree with it and state your reasons why?

Is it "he screwed so many people" or is it "he screwed so many (of the wrong) people" that he was banned? It seems to me the majority of the people who want to put a pitch fork into him are the ones who ordered uber-expensive custom units; generally the more senior members or those with more discretionary income or both.

And who are you, or anyone else for that matter, to speak for the "community"? I disagree with you. Does that mean I'm no longer a part of the "community"?

As for the potential confrontation that might have turned ugly, isn't it also possible that a civilized discussion could have taken place with the parties coming to some sort of a mutual agreement. Granted, similar discussions have (apparently) happened in the past with poor results, but maybe this time could have been the one that resolved their differences.

If anyone feels insulted due to my opinions, so be it. I'm sure they're all grown enough to not lose any sleep over what I have to say. After all, it's just an opinion of one member and I've not once denied they've had real issues.

 

[Wodgy]

The pyramid scheme analogy that some people are using is probably somewhat accurate. Pyramid schemes accumulate momentum because the people who get involved early do benefit, and those benefits attract more customers.

Mikhail's early amps were both relatively inexpensive and very good sounding (though of questionable construction until the PCB-based designs). Mikhail took advantage of the situation and the positive feedback from those who got involved early to build a larger and larger customer base while he simultaneously kept increasing his prices and reeling in bigger and bigger fish willing to spend big money on custom amps.

It's very unlikely in my mind that Mikhail started the whole game with the intention that it would be a scam, but it's interesting how the dynamics evolved to become very close to one. At some point he must have made the personal decision that pawning off low quality, often misrepresented stuff for extremely high prices was an acceptable business practice.

 

[DannyB]

All other exhibitors have confirmed their attendance in a timely manner. Mikhail is outside the rules/time limit for commercial exhibiting confirmation by not having the courtesy of responding either in the affirmative or otherwise.