[kelly]

I posted a comment over at HeadWize and felt I should post a response here too. Plus, I need the post count. (Hey, I'm getting there -- another 100 and I'm elligible for the MOH. Look on the bright side, I won't have a balanced source for a long time and can ease up after I hit 1000).

Alright, first off -- I very much appreciate all the hard work and effort that Jude has put into this site. As someone who has worked both for publishing rags and done web development, I know first hand both how much work and how expensive it is.

Second, I'm in full support of HeadFi's growth as a commercial web site. HeadFi has found a niche that needs filling and I hope it succeeds in that venture. I hope we draw more commercial sponsorship and that HeadFi continues to grow with the industry. As such, I fully expect there to be rules against things like posted advertisements and I expect Jude to be somewhat strict in enforcing those rules during what I'd consider to be a critical growth phase. It's more than understandable.

Third, for those of us caught up in this thread, HeadWize is a non-commercial sister site. There are different strengths and weaknesses of being commercial versus non. I think, as a reader, Jan's being able to freely post on HeadWize is a strength of the non-commercial format and a reason we should all continue to visit there as well.

Fourth, and last, I promise--with regards to Flumpus' question. I sincerely hope that the rule against advertisements does not extend to general posts. Many times the forums have questions like, "Hey I'm on a budget, where is the best place to get..." and I feel that we not only should continue to have a right to be informative but we have an obligation. If someone were to say, "Just so you guys know, Jan is discounting the DT931 this month." I would hope that it would be no different from, "Hey guys, Best Buy is clearing out their Audio Research stock and those $12 cables are going for $4.99 now." I'd hope both would continue to be allowed here and I'll complain a lot if they're not.

To be sure, Jude, your efforts are very appreciated. With the previous controversy surrounding Meier and Headroom and one of Jan's highly regarded posts vanishing without explanation, I hope you understand that the defensive response of the users does not negate the level appreciation we have for your site and your hard work.

Not that anyone asked me.

 

[jude]

Quote:

I think, as a reader, Jan's being able to freely post on HeadWize is a strength of the non-commercial format and a reason we should all continue to visit there as well.

Meier Audio is still a business, and I think some of you lose sight of this given his roots as a hobbyist. Following is a comment from a post Jan Meier made on HeadWize some time ago:

Quote:

"....Yes, I'm small, and yes I have fun doing business like this. However, this doesn't imply that I'm a mere hobbyist. I also have a regular job but if Meier Audio grows I do have the intention to make a full job of it. Actually, the last two months I made more money with Meier Audio than with this regular job...."

Admittedly, I find it surprising that a few people expect me to make exceptions and allow any business to utilize Head-Fi as a free distribution channel when I'm losing money every single month on it. And the more traffic there is, the more people want to use it as a distribution channel. Again, every single week I'm deleting several commercial posts made in the main forums.

And, again, as I've stated already, the general theme of the post wasn't why it was deleted. It was the ad components of it. As I also stated, I would have been perfectly fine about Jan re-posting the post without the ad components. If anything, we've encouraged companies to participate in discussions at Head-Fi. I'm on the phone with several of them regularly, trying to encourage manufacturers to enter discussions here. Jan posts freely at Head-Fi. And so does Tyll, Joseph Lau, James Serdechny and Chris Hoff (and Joe, James and Chris are not sponsors).

The one thing I've never done is dispute Jan's obvious commitment to this hobby. And I have personally purchased products from Meier Audio and HeadRoom.

Jan is aware of the fact that he can feel free to post an ad-free version of his post at Head-Fi, but he chooses not to at this time, and that's fine. And if you read Jan's post in this thread, even he seems to understand fully that the bigger and more expensive the place gets, the more structured the sponsor structure has to be.

Meier Audio is a business. HeadRoom is a business. Freesystems is a business. Head-Fi is a personal money pit for me. Do you really think it's my responsibility to give any company a free advertising vehicle while I incur their costs for that advertising? My answer is no way.. And if you were in my position, I don't think you'd do it either. Again, the companies can help cover the costs, and they've been very gracious about doing that so far. And that includes our three current sponsors: Jan Meier and his Meier Audio, Tyll Hertsens and his HeadRoom, and Freesystems.

Quote:

....and one of Jan's highly regarded posts vanishing without explanation...

Posts....plural? And regarding the post in question, I think there has been ample explanation. And I explained it to Jan via PM the moment I did it, so it wasn't without explanation that way either. Long story short, again, here's the deal: Jan can't post ads in the main forums. HeadRoom can't post ads in the main forums. Freesystems can't post ads in the main forums. Nobody can post commercial ads in the main forums. Jan's post contained ad components (and I can't believe anyone would even argue that -- even Jan hasn't disputed that). There's no rule against him (or any other manufacturer) posting non-ad posts freely in the main forums when their products are the topics of member discussion.

 

[Flumpus]

Jude, just wondering if you read my post about a private forum in addition to the regular forum. It seems to me to be the perfect solution to the financial problems of the board. I know there would be alot to work out, but is there any chance of this actually happening? My post was on the second page I think...You hadn't mentioned it so I wasn't sure if you saw it.

 

[kelly]

Quote:

Originally posted by jude "I think, as a reader, Jan's being able to freely post on HeadWize is a strength of the non-commercial format and a reason we should all continue to visit there as well." Meier Audio is still a business, and I think some of you lose sight of this given his roots as a hobbyist. "....and one of Jan's highly regarded posts vanishing without explanation..." Posts....plural? And regarding the post in question, I think there has been ample explanation. And I explained it to Jan via PM the moment I did it, so it wasn't without explanation that way either. Long story short, again, here's the deal:

Jude, I do understand your defensiveness in this but slow down and read what I'm saying here. The rest of the body of my message clearly expressed an understanding of your policies. There's no need to reitterate them, at least not to me. When I said "as a reader, Jan's ability to freely post on HeadWize" the implication was "his ability to post COMMERCIAL CONTENT that may be disallowed in places like, HERE for instance." I liked that I could read his message over on HeadWize, including the commercial part, even though I FULLY UNDERSTAND why you asked that part to be omitted here.

On the second quote. When I said "...and one of Jan's highly regarded posts", it's wasn't plural. "One of" is singular. One of his posts is what vanished. And you HAVE given AMPLE explanation of why it was deleted but not until AFTER people inquired about it. My point was only that you shouldn't be surprised that people were curious given that there was not at the time an explanation.

Calm down, Jude. I'm on your side--really. I'm not on everyone's side here

but I'm on yours. It's coo. We all good.

 

[jude]

Quote:

Originally posted by Flumpus Jude, just wondering if you read my post about a private forum in addition to the regular forum. It seems to me to be the perfect solution to the financial problems of the board. I know there would be alot to work out, but is there any chance of this actually happening? My post was on the second page I think...You hadn't mentioned it so I wasn't sure if you saw it.

Flumpus, sorry for not responding to this specific suggestion sooner.

Interesting suggestion, but I'll have to think about it more and see more input on this. One of my worries is that it might be perceived as somewhat elitist, and I'd feel funny about posting in the regular forums something like, "And, as we were discussing in the private forum...."

Back when Head-Fi started in June, my intent was to allow it to continue and grow without asking any of our members for dough.

 

[jude]

Quote:

Originally posted by kelly Jude, I do understand your defensiveness in this but slow down and read what I'm saying here. The rest of the body of my message clearly expressed an understanding of your policies. There's no need to reitterate them, at least not to me. When I said "as a reader, Jan's ability to freely post on HeadWize" the implication was "his ability to post COMMERCIAL CONTENT that may be disallowed in places like, HERE for instance." I liked that I could read his message over on HeadWize, including the commercial part, even though I FULLY UNDERSTAND why you asked that part to be omitted here. On the second quote. When I said "...and one of Jan's highly regarded posts", it's wasn't plural. "One of" is singular. One of his posts is what vanished. And you HAVE given AMPLE explanation of why it was deleted but not until AFTER people inquired about it. My point was only that you shouldn't be surprised that people were curious given that there was not at the time an explanation. Calm down, Jude. I'm on your side--really. I'm not on everyone's side here but I'm on yours. It's coo. We all good.

My bad about the plural.

But the commercial content thing appears to be no-win with some. One post gets by in the headphone forum that looks to some like it could be a shill post (of course, not Jan or any other sponsor), and someone is complaining about how this place is starting to look like the newsgroups. A few others (maybe not you, kelly) seem to want me to make an exception for Jan for whatever reason. Obviously, there's no satisfying everyone.

As far as explaining why a post is deleted: if I had to post and tell you all when I delete a commercial post, there'd be a lot of posts here about that. I explain it to the poster privately. If someone wants to ask about it publically, then I'll explain it publically.

 

[gaineso]

Jude;

As Jan said, we're in your house and we play by your rules. Personally, I like your rules. This is a fun and informative forum, and I'd really hate to see ANYTHING screw it up.

Your generosity in doing a lot of this out of your pocket, plus the time involved, thanks just seems a little inappropriate or insufficient.

I for one appreciate it.

 

[Mr.PD]

Quote:

Exactly 30 items have been purchased as of today. Gross Sales = $585.70 Head-Fi Net = $166.00 And that's one hundred sixty six very helpful dollars. Thanks to all those who bought stuff from there -- I hope you like what you got. Thanks to all these people (initials only), in order of sales: SL DRG AC BDG KWT DGS STK JT MMT BL GFY RLF SS CMD KLM AS PA Thanks again to the people behind these initials. I hope I covered everyone there.

Just to lighten the mood here. I am one of those 17 people listed who purchased something though CafePress. I bought a hat. I like the hat, and thank you Jude for the recognition of that small purchase.

 

[Flumpus]

Hehe...I'm one of those people too. Bought a beer stein for my roommate, since he's the only one that drinks around here

 

[cajunchrist]

I originally posted these observations on headwize:

Your reason for not accepting user donations: "Yes, we have our big spenders in the bunch, but I don't feel (and please, guys, take no offense) confident enough in my ability to collect, say, $1000/month from such a vast member base, each and every month (the bills don't mercifully stop to accommodate a failure to do this)." -- jude

You stated that "Even with the sponsors we have, I end up putting between $200 and $400 of my own money into this site every month." 200 and 400 dollars is different than collecting 1000 dollars a month. Company sponsors are one thing, individual sponsors are another. You would not need to collect ALL the costs of running head-fi from individuals using the site, just the amount not covered by sponsors. I am sure that you could collect close to that from us members than can afford $10-$20 a month to support a service we like and want to be a significant part of, collecting payment on a few dozen paypal emails a month couldn't possibly devour that much time. Your refusal to accept any such payments bothers me alot and none of your arguments against it makes real sense.

"And what about when we get bigger? What about when our bills are as big, or bigger, than Audio Asylum's? Yes, I feel very strongly we'll get there, and I think you all know we will too, because the cost of entry into headphone hi-fi is much less expensive than what they talk about most of the time at Audio Asylum; and so, in my opinion, it's more welcoming here. So what happens when we get to that level of traffic? We're not that far off now. When our costs get to, say, $2000/month? I'll tell you this -- as the guy who's organizing this end of it, I'd rather collect that amount from a handful of companies than a bunch of individual members." -- jude

Again, who says you have to chase down all 2000+ members and have a totally member sponsored board? Why not let us help a little?

I think this is why, which speaks to the heart of my concerns: "Remember that we're all guests at Jude's place and guests have to live according to the rules of the house. It's as simply as that " -- Jan Meier

It's Jude's house and nobody else's. Period.

 

[jude]

cajunchrist,

Quote:

Your refusal to accept any such payments bothers me alot and none of your arguments against it makes real sense.

I'm sick of having to reply on this thread, and on this issue. I think I've stated my opinions on this matter many times over. And if it still doesn't make sense to you, then it doesn't. I think I've been perfectly clear on the issue.

I have always wanted to keep this place free for the users. This is something I stated way back in June 2001, when this joint opened up. I appreciate any offers of help, and I may take you up on it if I find I absolutely can't get it all covered by the sponsors in a reasonable amount of time. And, in fact, I've said that before, and probably in this thread.

 

[dngl]

man jude, you're cool. Once I drive, I'll get a keychain.

Is there any way you could add wallets to the store?

 

[Vertigo-1]

Keychains??? I want one!

Yeah wallets would be awesome too.

BTW, is anyone else having problems getting into the Headfi online store?

 

[Driftwood]

can someone lock this thread? It isn't going anywhere.

Driftwood