[Audio-Me]

I didn't know Jans post was serious, I thought it was kind of funny that he'd advertise through a thread.

Head-Fi stuff is next on my to-buy list. Also, if push comes to shuv, I'd be more than happy to pay a monthly subscription fee.

If someone's interested, I could do the designs and process+organize orders for Head-Fi posters & stickers if someone wants to take care of the printing/shipping (you take the payments as well), then donate all proceeds to jude.

 

[jodokast]

Doesn't Head-Fi already have something similiar to this?

http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/st...storeid=headfi

Hehe......I wonder how many people actually buy stuff......while I'd like to buy some merchandise, it's really thru a third-party - and I would much rather give cash directly to Jude rather than via some third party merchant.

 

[jude]

....and explained it to Jan in a private message (he responded and understood).

Why did I delete it?

Most of the message was fine. But some of it clearly reads as ad copy. We do not allow ad posts in the main forums, and this is something that is enforced strictly, sometimes several times in a week.

I suggested to Jan that he could edit it to make it less ad-like, and re-post it. I certainly wasn't about to edit it.


Quote:

Originally posted by pigmode Apparently, Headroom is paying for it's forum. This is like deja vu, I hope it's not the case that Headroom has crapped on Jan again. Was there an official complaint?

Absolutely not. I deleted this with no prompting from anyone else. In fact, I'd be surprised if HeadRoom even saw the thread in question, and I don't care if they did or they didn't.

Quote:

Originally posted by shivohum Wow... I'm sorry, but that's pretty terrible. I'm not sure how to address the problem, but surely a policy that prevents a top-notch hobbyist from communicating his thoughts without payment on a hobbyists' forum is less than optimal. Jan's post is of general interest to the community. This makes me very glad that Headwize forums, old-fashioned uncommercial entity that it is, still exist. I for one will be pointing on Head-Fi to all of Jan's articles that I find on Headwize or elsewhere, since I have no affiliation with his company. Or is that now disallowed, too?

We enforce the no-ad posting policy on the main forums without bias. The members don't want posted ads littering the main forums. If not for the moderators, this is what you'd have. I'm sure one or two slip by periodically, but when we see them, we delete them and then notify the poster why.

By as cynical as you want, shivohum, but understand the following: I have put thousands of dollars of my own money into this site. Even with the sponsors we have, I end up putting between $200 and $400 of my own money into this site every month. And we need a faster server soon (some of you may have noticed that we're a bit slower than we used to be). If you want to go to HeadWize, go. I still go there, too. But I can guarantee you this: HeadWize could not handle the level of traffic we serve here nowadays.

Quote:

Originally posted by jodokast Hm...*methinks* Head-Fi = community. Head-Fi = members essentially, much like slashdot.org or ****edcompany.com. Slashdot.org was sold for over a million dollars to a few individuals..... Head-Fi = community --> supports sponsors like Headroom, Meir-Audio Jan = part of Head-fi since its' roots and is therefore part of its' community. Why again do we need sponsors? vBulletin uses php, only stresses the database so much.....even then a server would only cost a couple thousand or so...plus or minius hosting. Hm.......but then again, this is just me. I probably have this all wrong (as usual) Oh, well. I guess we'll just move on......

Only cost a couple of thousand? As though it's just a drop in the bucket?

I really don't think most of the Head-Fi community knows just how busy this place has become. We are generating several million page impressions every month. The costs are real. From a post in Audio Asylum from the moderators there about the cost of running Audio Asylum:

Quote:

In terms of upcoming acquisitions, we need: ....New, dedicated data server to offload the main server from the database and search applications. Cost will be $4-5K..... ....Ongoing monthly cost of T1. Current usage on average is about 75% of capacity and peak usage from around 10AM to 2PM PST is typically maxed. If growth continues, we may need to consider a second T1 or other alternatives to maintain current performance levels. Cost is $850/month per T1 line....

I'm not sure how much busier Audio Asylum is than Head-Fi in terms of page impressions, but their Alexa Ranking (a ranking of the millions of web sites Alexa tracks) is 12,191. Head-Fi's is 16,440. In other words, we're not that much smaller in terms of overall traffic (based on page impressions tracked by Alexa). To further explain this, an Alexa Rank of 16,440 means Head-Fi is the 16,440th busiest site of the millions tracked by Alexa, and moving up. To give you some idea about the relative traffic:

Audiogon is Alexa Ranked 74,669.
Audiogon Discussion Forums are ranked 158,782.
Soundstage.com is ranked 142,258.
Stereophile.com is ranked 48,762.
Stereo Times is ranked 277,962.
TNT-Audio is ranked 81,004.
Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity is ranked 48,866,
TheAbsoluteSound.com is ranked 372,180.

Yes, that's right, folks -- we are generating far more page impressions than any of those web sites.

I try not to come into these forums complaining about how much this place costs me to run. But to run it, someone has to pay. If I have my druthers, it'll be sponsors, period. Whether they're community members or not doesn't change the fact that the sponsors want to use this forum as a PR station and distribution channel, which I have no problem with, and it doesn't appear anyone here does either, as long as it's done right. But it's not my job to continue to spend my own money to provide commercial interests with a free channel. So, if they want to do it, they can pay for it. If that still doesn't sit with you, I don't know what else to tell you.

Quote:

Originally posted by mikewang Well, I'm sure Jan's glad he paid for a sponsorship in exchange for his posts being arbitarily deleted. For all the talk about an informative and honest community, when it came down to brass tacks, all that talk got tossed out the window. Jan's post was more informative than commercial, and a hell of a lot better written than Tyll's rants, not considering that English isn't even Jan's native language. If a post like Jan's is subject to deletion, what's next? What if someone posts a bad review of a sponsored product? Of course, everyone is going to say that won't ever happen. But if informative, non-troll posts are subject to censorship, then the powers-that-be betters spell out exactly what the ground rules are, otherwise paranoia will poison the atmosphere of the forum. I don't mind if a site "sells out." Heck, we all need to make a living. At least be honest and up-front about it, though. A better option would've been to lock the thread with a post from a moderator explaining why the post was against the rules. And the best option would've been to just left the damn post alone.

Oh, gimme a break. A forum is almost incorruptable. It either thrives or dies. Why? Because if I start editing posts and deleting posts that are unfavorable to sponsors, it's not like you don't have other channels to tell each other about it (like HeadWize or e-mail or chat). Of course, I'd never do such a thing anyway.

Jan's post contained a lot of ad-type elements, plain and simple; and I didn't feel it was my place to edit it, so I deleted it -- we delete all ad-type posts we find in the main forums. I saved the text, and it's also posted at HeadWize. Jan can edit it and re-post it here if he wants. If you only knew how many posted ads from other companies we delete from this place, you might be surprised. And, no, I don't lump Jan or Tyll in with just any other company trying to make a buck off the folks here, but, again, we do not allow ad-type posts in the main forums, period. Again, any ad-type post in the main forums is deleted when found or reported. We do it all the time, and most of the time people don't notice it. This time it happened to be Jan. But look at it from where I sit. I don't favor HeadRoom or Jan. Whoever's willing and able to pay for it can get a sponsor forum. HeadRoom wants one, and I'm in talks with another company right now to maybe open another one. Why? I'll say it again: I HAVE ALREADY PUT SEVERAL THOUSAND DOLLARS OF MY OWN MONEY INTO THIS SITE, AND WE NEED TO MAKE IMPROVEMENTS RELATIVELY SOON, AND, EVEN WITH THE SPONSORS WE HAVE NOW, I AM STILL LOSING MONEY. So we need a new server -- where is the money coming from? Where do you think. So I have to try to make the most sense of some sponsorship structure.

If I let Jan -- or anyone else who visits this forum -- post ads in the main forums, not only will that be bad for the main forums, but it'll make anyone who opts to pay for a sponsor forum say, "What the fudge? Why should I even pay for this spot when I can simply post whatever I want in the main forums?"

If that still doesn't sit well with you, then, again, I don't know what to tell you. But I've never asked any of you for a penny. Nor do I ever want to. The sponsors can pay for this place as far as I'm concerned, because it is anything but free.

 

[kwkarth]

Ok, time to sharpen the pencil...

Assuming the board takes $10k per year to run, not counting the amortization for all the equipment, that's 833 per month, every month, heck, since we're shootin in the dark anyway, let's round that up to 1k per month recurring operating costs, STILL not including the time envested by many, especially Jude and Neil, to manage to accounts, software, incidentals, etc...

There are on average, maybe 25 or so users logged on. There was a one time peak of 87 users logged on at one time. There are roughly 2000 members currently. How many would stick around if there were a subscription fee? How interesting and diverse would the board remain with only subscription postings?

Figgure maybe 100 people would stick around if it cost 'em something. That's 10 bux a month, or $120 bux a year for each of us. Still think it woud work?? How long would it last?

 

[jude]

Quote:

Originally posted by cajunchrist [size=medium]SOLUTION:[/size] User sponsorship. Eliminate all outside sponsorship. I'm good for 100. How about you?

I've considered this model, cajunchrist. It seems to work well with Audio Asylum. But our member base is much younger, and so generally less affluent. Yes, we have our big spenders in the bunch, but I don't feel (and please, guys, take no offense) confident enough in my ability to collect, say, $1000/month from such a vast member base, each and every month (the bills don't mercifully stop to accommodate a failure to do this).

And what about when we get bigger? What about when our bills are as big, or bigger, than Audio Asylum's? Yes, I feel very strongly we'll get there, and I think you all know we will too, because the cost of entry into headphone hi-fi is much less expensive than what they talk about most of the time at Audio Asylum; and so, in my opinion, it's more welcoming here. So what happens when we get to that level of traffic? We're not that far off now. When our costs get to, say, $2000/month? I'll tell you this -- as the guy who's organizing this end of it, I'd rather collect that amount from a handful of companies than a bunch of individual members.

Thanks for that generous individual offer anyway, cajunchrist. I'll decline for now for the reasons stated above.

 

[Flumpus]

I can see both sides, and don't have an opinion right now, but I do have a small innocent question

If Jan were to have another Sales Action (which he will according to his post), will he be allowed to post it here? If not, would one of us be able to post it here? If Jan were to use one of us as his puppet to speak for him would that be allowed?

Ok, just kidding with that last one, but I am curious about the Sales Action thing... 'cause finding good deals is a big part of this board.

And on a personal level, I definitely appreciate all you do Jude... you saved us when Headwize went down, and did it so well we all stuck with ya. I'd support a subscription based forum (maybe a private forum to help fund this one...), or donations, I don't know. Let me know if ya need anything, I'll give whatever I can

 

[danny]

For what it is worth, Headroom has had posts or replies in forums other than its own, that members objected to. They were either edited or removed.

In our own forum(s), and office, we have Tyll. People object to him all the time, but he keeps showing up. (Maybe the moderators can come to Montana and remove him????)

 

[Audio-Me]

If bandwidth becomes a serious issue, I think editing the html code to be plain text only, keep the avatars, just reduce their size, and use text smilies instead. I love how fast AudioAsylum loads anyway.

I love the organization of Head-Fi, keep it the same, just get rid of the eye candy. Otherwise, I think all these neat fun extras really help in growing the community. Professional/geeky(no graphics) looking sites tend to scare many newbies away.

Mandatory subscription would ruin the community, but an organized voluntary subscription would suffice.

I'm surprised Sennheiser doesn't sponsor Head-Fi. I bet Sennheiser's thrilled by all the new purchases of their HD580 and HD600 and now their value models. Would it be okay to suggest to all the owners of Sennheiser headphones @ head-fi add their names to a thread and any positive comments, sort of like a petition, and one of you skilled lawyers write up a formal letter to Sennheiser explaining that Head-Fi is a non profit community that clearly helps their sales (they pretty much get free publicity from all our recommendations and praisals), and Head-Fi & Sennheiser would mutually benifit from a sponsorship.

 

[jude]

Quote:

Originally posted by Flumpus If Jan were to have another Sales Action (which he will according to his post), will he be allowed to post it here?

Yes, because there will soon be a forum that commercial interests can pay to post ads in. They will be time-limited -- two weeks or one month per post, depending on how much they pay.

But, no, he will not be able to post it in the main forums.

 

[Flumpus]

And will we be able to post in the for sale forums that we found a good deal on something for Jan's Sales Action? I know it's been done on several occasions for other dealers, just curious about how this will work since Jan is so close to the forum...

 

[jude]

Quote:

Originally posted by Audio&Me If bandwidth becomes a serious issue, I think editing the html code to be plain text only, keep the avatars, just reduce their size, and use text smilies instead. I love how fast AudioAsylum loads anyway. I love the organization of Head-Fi, keep it the same, just get rid of the eye candy. Otherwise, I think all these neat fun extras really help in growing the community. Professional/geeky(no graphics) looking sites tend to scare many newbies away. Mandatory subscription would ruin the community, but an organized voluntary subscription would suffice. I'm surprised Sennheiser doesn't sponsor Head-Fi. I bet Sennheiser's thrilled by all the new purchases of their HD580 and HD600 and now their value models. Would it be okay to suggest to all the owners of Sennheiser headphones @ head-fi add their names to a thread and any positive comments, sort of like a petition, and one of you skilled lawyers write up a formal letter to Sennheiser explaining that Head-Fi is a non profit community that clearly helps their sales (they pretty much get free publicity from all our recommendations and praisals), and Head-Fi & Sennheiser would mutually benifit from a sponsorship.

Audio&Me, the small extras really aren't that bad in terms of bandwidth utilization. There are so many page impressions generated here that simple HTML tweaks won't make this place much closer to free. The way I see it, sponsorship is the only way to support a forum this busy that's getting busier. And I don't mind it getting busier and busier -- but it does have to be paid for.

Regarding Sennheiser -- I haven't really approached them about a sponsorship yet, but I have spoken with them. They know we're here, and I wouldn't be surprised if they help us out down the road, but I can make no promises for them, nor is what I'm saying here to be construed as a suggestion of anything specific.

 

[jude]

Quote:

Originally posted by Flumpus And will we be able to post in the for sale forums that we found a good deal on something for Jan's Sales Action? I know it's been done on several occasions for other dealers, just curious about how this will work since Jan is so close to the forum...

Flumpus,

Generally, you guys can do whatever you want. But I'll say this -- if you think you're doing the community a favor by trying to undermine the sponsor structure, you're mistaken. Every sponsor will have the opportunity to post ads. Any relevant company (relevant in terms of what they do -- that is, not a real estate company or online grocer) can opt for a sponsor forum. If the community as a whole tries to ruin the incentives of sponsors to do this, you can kiss the forum goodbye in the long run.

 

[Audio-Me]

Would you accept voluntary subscriptions? I'd like to do something for Head-Fi, more than a regular member that posts a lot

, even if it's rather insignificant.

 

[Flumpus]

Ugh, I didn't mean for it to come off that way... I'm just saying, in the past we've "advertised" for certain retailers that have good deals. We'd be doing the same for Jan because obviously his Sales Actions are good deals, but he's also a forum sponsor who can't post advertisments himself... I guess it's the same as anything else, as long as he doesn't do it. Would that be a correct assumption?

 

[jude]

Quote:

Originally posted by Audio&Me Would you accept voluntary subscriptions? I'd like to do something for Head-Fi, more than a regular member that posts a lot , even if it's rather insignificant.

Audio&Me,

As I told cajunchrist, I will also say thanks to you for kindly offering. But I'll have to kindly decline your offer for now. The sponsors will pay for this place. Heck, we support all the sponsors (and several potential sponsors), and so they can support us back. And so far they've all been very nice and generous about it. That goes for Jan, Tyll and Neoh (FreeSystems).

We have a few more sponsors coming soon. I feel very confident that Head-Fi will continue to grow, and stay healthy in the process. But, again, thanks very much for your offer.

EDIT: Of course, as I post this bit about being "healthy", our image server starts to stall. Cripes.