[Cymbal Monkey]

So why do you have such a hard time with the facts of cables?

 

[beeman458]

So why do you have such a hard time with the facts of cables?
 
???
 
Who are you writing to?
 
???

 

[The Monkey]

It's pretty simple: he doesn't understand the difference between fact and opinion. A surprising number of people here suffer from the same problem. And that's a fact.

 

[Young Spade]

Quote:

It's pretty simple: he doesn't understand the difference between fact and opinion. A surprising number of people here suffer from the same problem. And that's a fact.

 
^ This.
 

 

[The Monkey]

Just to be clear, Young Spade, I was referring to beeman's inability to separate the two, not Cymbal Monkey's.  Simians stick together.

 

[Young Spade]

Ah ok. Well let me edit that...
 
But yea I agree with the fact vs opinion thing; sorry for quoting that wrong :/

 

[beeman458]

Young Spade wrote:
 
^ This.
 
Okay, we'll play a game.  It's called;  "What is this?"
 
I have "The Monkey" on ignore because he uses an intentionally inflammatory or attacking writing style, designed to cause upset, so I haven't a clue what you or Cymbal Monkey is writing about.
 
If you or others want to believe that I haven't a clue when it comes to fact, opinion or the ability to tell the difference, you and others are welcome to believe what it is you will.
 
I've discussed what I look for in a critical listening session.  I'll look forward to the anti-cable crowd discussing their critical listening sessions and exactly what it is they listen for when evaluating cables they can't hear a difference in.

 

[BIG POPPA]

To do critical listening to judge something I found if you just listen to about a 30 second passage in a favorite CD it is easy to hear the info you are looking for. Especially if you are in an a/b situation.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

 
I've discussed what I look for in a critical listening session.  I'll look forward to the anti-cable crowd discussing their critical listening sessions and exactly what it is they listen for when evaluating cables they can't hear a difference in.

It's the same as evaluating any piece of gear.  I listen for bass quality - loose and sloppy bass is easily detected.  Overall tonality is important and whether notes are sharp/flat compared to others to hear the frequency response, transparency and barely audible clues I know are there (e.g. crowd noise, fingers on frets, that sort of thing), how well transients are handled, and for good extension in the highs.  I use recordings I'm very familiar with, including one of myself with my college band.  A couple are of performances I attended, and others are of works that I've actually played and am familiar with from a community orchestra I was in.
 
I can pick apart most headphones and speakers without much trouble.  Amps can be a little trickier when not driven into clipping, but I find that tube amps generally have a lot more character than solid state.  The Si2A3 soft-pedals the bass ever so slightly and the human voice gets a sheen of the good distortion that only DHTs give.  It makes it stand apart.  There are lots of other subtle clues, too.  Analog sources are full of character, especially vinyl.  Slight changes make a difference.  Digital sources are very difficult to tell apart once you level-match them.  And cables haven't shown a single sign of changing anything I listen for.
 
I'll remind you that I lived with the Cardas and Blue Dragon on my HD-600 and HD-650 for at least a couple of years.  Those were my go-to headphones most of the time and I'm sure I logged close to 1,000 hours between the two.  This wasn't just a five minute thing under meet conditions.  Nothing ever stood out with those cables, but I did pick up on amp differences and minor vinyl cartridge alignment issues.  Nothing I couldn't hear with the stock cables, though.  The SME IV arrived with (I think) a Van Den Hul D-501 Silver Hybrid[size=smaller][size=larger] that connects the arm to the phono preamp.  I also have a generic one.  Didn't hear a difference.  I've left the VDH cable hooked just to see if any difference turns up.  So far, nothing.  I wouldn't have bought it, but the seller included it with the arm.[/size][/size]

 

[beeman458]

And when I apply your above, I don't hear changes because the terms are too generalized.
 
I'm listening to single notes or string plucks.  I listen to two or three second time slices and then I'm only listening to a fraction of the information in that time slice.
 
I use recordings I'm very familiar with, including one of myself with my college band.  A couple are of performances I attended, and others are of works that I've actually played and am familiar with from a community orchestra I was in.
 
That one made me smile.  Why?  It begs the question of recording quality and the fidelity of the recording vs live vs what the decoding (playback) equipment is capable of delivering in the form of an analogue sine wave to our ears.
 
I can pick apart most headphones and speakers without much trouble.
 
Maybe were saying the same thing in that I don't pick apart anything but the music and even then I don't know.  Why?  Because I'm being so critical, could it even be said that I'm picking apart the music for I'm concentrating on recorded information as opposed to the actual flowing music itself.
 
And cables haven't shown a single sign of changing anything I listen for.
 
That's the rub, they have for me.  In the case of interconnects, less so than speaker cables.  Why?  I don't know.  So, when I buy interconnects, I buy some decent, mid-grade Kimbers for their build quality (I stay away from Monster) and leave it at that.  But speaker cables or headphone cables have improved the listening experience.  Why?  I don't know.  But when in critical listening mode, yes, the improvement is there.  I for one, am grateful how they'll improve extension and reduce clipping.  For me, clipping simply ruins the overall listening experience.
 
I'll remind you that I lived with the Cardas and Blue Dragon on my HD-600 and HD-650 for at least a couple of years.
 
And as a counter, once I come out of critical listening mode, the playback experience, if on a bad system, simply becomes a bad listening experience such as is the case when listening to the FM radio while in the service truck.  Or if on a decent system, then I simply enjoy and don't listen for sonic flaws as doing so ruins the listening experience.  If you will, it's much like getting wrapped up while listening to a pianist hitting the wrong keys.  Sounds like we're both striving for the best possible sound we're capable of perceiving.  The point, we all become accepting of that which we have no control over or that which we don't perceive.
 
Nothing I couldn't hear with the stock cables, though.  The SME IV arrived with (I think) a Van Den Hul D-501 Silver Hybrid[size=smaller][size=larger] that connects the arm to the phono preamp.  I also have a generic one.  Didn't hear a difference.  I've left the VDH cable hooked just to see if any difference turns up.  So far, nothing.  I wouldn't have bought it, but the seller included it with the arm.[/size][/size]
 
[size=smaller][size=larger]Note the bias in your above?  It seems that if you (or others) can't hear a difference, then this point sets the stage for the need to prove that a difference doesn't exist.  You, in your own way, have decided that if you don't hear a difference, then nobody can hear a difference and now folks have set about to validate their lack of hearing differences by developing tests to back them up.  So far, everything being written sounds like sour grapes and if you were to ask me, I'd call that "loaded dice."[/size][/size]  The difference between you and me?  I hear a difference.  I'm happy with the difference I hear and I don't care if another hears what I'm hearing or not.  So I have nothing to prove, no tests, therefore, no bias.  FWIW, you've put forth your effort and doing so, hasn't paid off.  Please don't paint me with your brush just because doing so makes you feel good about yourself.

 

[The Monkey]

Quote:

Ah ok. Well let me edit that...
 
But yea I agree with the fact vs opinion thing; sorry for quoting that wrong :/

I think you and are in agreement.  There's a lot of opinion as truth out there and it's not limited to one member.

 
Quote:

Young Spade wrote:
 
^ This.
 
Okay, we'll play a game.  It's called;  "What is this?"
 
I have "The Monkey" on ignore because he uses an intentionally inflammatory or attacking writing style, designed to cause upset, so I haven't a clue what you or Cymbal Monkey is writing about.

beeman, I'm willing to bet that you continue to read my posts, but I think the real reason I'm on your ignore list is that I asked you some basic questions and the answers made you uncomfortable.  I believe you started here thinking you knew far more than you did.  That can be unsettling.  It appears that maybe you're trying to learn at least a little now, which is good.  The moment any of us thinks we know it all is a dangerous moment indeed.
 
My intent is not to cause upset.  My writing style is simply that of an adult.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

 
Quote:

To me that reads as there is a very small difference which can be explained by an emotional response. But you say it is something to do with the cable itself. Or is it a bit of both?
 
No, it's saying that the small sonic difference the cable "adds" to the listening experience, "causes" a positive emotional response; cause and effect.  The part that keeps getting missed, this is about nuances.  It's about how much information you can resolve.  If the particular recording is stunted at it's inception, you're not going pick up a difference, cables or no cables.  Why?  Because the information isn't there to be resolved.  The cable is part of the total chain of events which transports the analogue signal to the ears.  Music as everybody knows, is a combination of many, many, many, many, many factors from venue acoustics, to the sensitivity of the recording mic, placement, to the instruments and voice being recorded and what the sound engineer does to the music at the soundboard.  This all compressed into the wonderful world of zeros and ones and then expanded again into a sine wave format, analogue; sweet music to, hopefully, all of our ears.
 
Rather than argue yes I can, no I can't.  I'm putting myself out there by explaining how I personally listen and for what it is that I listen.  What I'm trying to do is point out the differences I hear, even though but a very small portion of the overall recorded material and if you're not in tune with what I'm listening for, you'll completely miss it like it was never there.  I personally think cables guys should spend more time openly discussing what they're listening for as then the behavior will begin to take on a life that one who doesn't understand, can better understand.  You see, if you haven't experienced what I'm writing about, then it's all in the realm of mythology to you or others.
 
It's kinda the same reason that I'm happy with inexpensive wines because I, for the life of me, can't pick-up all the different wine characteristics wine experts describe.  This, even though I'm in tune with different local growing regions and varietal differences and can taste and describe these differences.  I've even developed a fondness for inexpensive red Bordeaux wines, for good reason but when folks start writing of chocolate and all the rest, hey, I'm lost.  But that don't mean it's not there.  I don't think there's a scientific test in the world that can test for these taste characteristics everybody is so happy to describe that I can't taste and I'm sure that most folks would fail brown bag wine tests but that don't mean it's not real.  If somebody tells me the wine tastes like chocolate and strawberries, I've got to take their word for it because to me, it's tastes like sour grapes with an alcohol punch.
 
Personally, I think it's lame to spend more then ten or twenty bucks for a bottle of wine but if I could afford it, I'd be buying fifty dollar single barrel bourbon, all day long as although I still can't taste the berries and chocolate, I sure can taste the character difference.  Yummmmm, love that sweet corn taste.
 

OK so you are saying that there is some physical property in one cable that is different or abscent from another cable and that causes a different emotional response by which you are able to hear the difference. Have you any suggestions as to what that physical property is?
 
BTW the best bottle of wine I have ever had (I am an occasional wine drinker) was the local red, cheap stuff with no label, a wax cap instead of a cork out of a grocers in Ville Real in the heart of Bordeaux.

 

[Young Spade]

Quote:

Young Spade wrote:
 
^ This.
 
Okay, we'll play a game.  It's called;  "What is this?"
 
I have "The Monkey" on ignore because he uses an intentionally inflammatory or attacking writing style, designed to cause upset, so I haven't a clue what you or Cymbal Monkey is writing about.
 
If you or others want to believe that I haven't a clue when it comes to fact, opinion or the ability to tell the difference, you and others are welcome to believe what it is you will.
 
I've discussed what I look for in a critical listening session.  I'll look forward to the anti-cable crowd discussing their critical listening sessions and exactly what it is they listen for when evaluating cables they can't hear a difference in.

Did I say that you didn't know the difference? No I did not. As I stated in my previous post, I was referring to everyone's fact/opinion's, not specifically yours. Singling out people on forums isn't my thing; sorry if you saw it that way.
 
I was referring to the fact that sometimes people think their opinions are fact and even though blind testing isn't done by everyone, you can't just disregard their opinions because you don't feel like they did adequate testing. Audio quality is suggestive isn't it?
 
But again, to each their own. I never tell people that I think they're wrong when they state that cables don't provide an audible change to the sound, I suggest that they sit down and actually switch from one cable to the other and see if they hear a difference. I do and that's why I believe in cables. 

 

[beeman458]

Prog Rock Man wrote:
 
Have you any suggestions as to what that physical property is?
 
Not a clue.  Not trying to be flip in my response but the reason why is, I'm only in it for the music.  All I know, based upon what my ears tell me is that the cheap stuff keeps the analogue signal compressed causing a form of clipping or loads the signal up so you lose air or the three dimensional nature of the recording and the better stuff allows the analogue signal to open up so clipping is either reduced or eliminated and you get more sense of space.
 
BTW the best bottle of wine I have ever had (I am an occasional wine drinker) was the local red, cheap stuff with no label, a wax cap instead of a cork out of a grocers in Ville Real in the heart of Bordeaux.
 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Would you accept that any difference is not then due to the cable, but instead it is down to you alone? That would explain why you hear something others do not.