[bigshot]

You weren't talking about the amp section being inadequate for some headphones?

In any case, a DAC should be a DAC. Line out from a DAC should be line out. It should be transparent to the human ear. If it isn't there is something wrong with it. Return it and get your money back.

 

[pibroch]

You weren't talking about the amp section being inadequate for some headphones?

In any case, a DAC should be a DAC. Line out from a DAC should be line out. It should be transparent to the human ear. If it isn't there is something wrong with it. Return it and get your money back.

How does a person assess whether a dac is transparent to their own ear? Do they audition it with other dacs of good repute using recordings of acoustic instruments to see whether they sound close enough to the real thing, or whether one does a better job than the others?

 

[bigshot]

Whenever I get a new piece of equipment, I test it against other pieces of equipment in a direct A/B switched line level matched comparison using the reference recordings I'm used to using. I've done this with every piece of electronics I own... amps, players, DAPs, etc. If one of them sounded different, I would get worried and try to figure out whether the difference is an improvement or a problem. So far, I've tested all kinds of things, from an Oppo HA-1 all the way down to a $49 Walmart DVD player and they all sound the same. Electronics *should* sound the same. If it isn't. it's not performing to spec and is most likely defective.

In any system, the transducers are the wild card. They always sound different. I can correct for that with EQ. But if every piece of equipment didn't have a flat response curve, I would have to come up with a different EQ setting for each piece of equipment. That would be chaos. I require my electronics to perform to spec.

 

[RollsDownWindowsManually]

I do think that the rather large difference in transducer quality goads people into thinking other parts of a sound system create audible differences when they don't . Mix that with industry people who profit from this misconception and you get where we are today: a place where dacs and amps have "soundstage" and anyone who listens to an MP3 is considered a tasteless fool. For a long time I have known to disregard a person's opinion when they start mentioning differences in cable sound quality; I think claims about dacs can have the same utility, and feel generally the same about amplifiers which meet a very low bar of minimum specifications. Maybe someone industrious could set up a Richard Clark type bet, except this time with dacs instead of amplifiers.

Unfortunately several of the headphones I own are designed by people who market and sell high dollar cables. I wonder if they truly believe that they are benefiting the consumer with their cable product or if they just feel that if they don't make money on cables someone else will.

 

[castleofargh]

How does a person assess whether a dac is transparent to their own ear? Do they audition it with other dacs of good repute using recordings of acoustic instruments to see whether they sound close enough to the real thing, or whether one does a better job than the others?

obviously asserting transparency is tricky in itself, because it assumes we have a proper reference to use, which we may or may not have.
picking some acoustic recording and listening to decide if it feels realistic is IMO a really unreliable method. Bob Katz does it, using a piece that he recorded and mastered. I would argue that memory is a serious issue, but at the same time it's pretty fair to say that he knows that reference to some level.
but when I pick some concerto I like and listen to the violin, I have no idea about the conditions for the recording, how it was mixed/mastered and how it's supposed to sound. deciding arbitrarily that it must sound the way I imagine a violin should sound is simply making too many assumptions. so when the violin sounds like a crying dog on one DAC, we can be confident that the sound probably isn't transparent. but past that I'm of the opinion that such a method really lacks accuracy in ways most people probably don't suspect.

when comparing DACs, if you can find a few that end up sounding about the same(once level matched and in a blind test), then chances are that's audible transparency. simply because the likelihood of several devices doing it wrong the same way is pretty low. not impossible, as many gears could simply rely on the same components and default cheap design. but still low, and that's when you can get yourself a soundcard with a fine input and send the DACs to that input for a bunch of measurements. if the fidelity measured shows no puzzling result, and all those DACs are audibly similar in controlled listening tests, then the chances for them being audibly transparent for you is really high.

 

[bigshot]

obviously asserting transparency is tricky in itself, because it assumes we have a proper reference to use, which we may or may not have.

Take a CD you are familiar with and sounds good. Rip it to WAV or AIFF. Load it onto multiple players or run it through a DAC. Bingo! Proper reference. A/B switching solves the auditory memory problem. It really isn't hard to compare things at all. The hardest part is line level matching. Especially when you ask someone who is anal retentive how it should be done.

 

[stalepie]

If the differences are inaudible, I wouldn't care about the measurements. I'd base my decision on features or price. Better measurements that I can't hear don't mean anything to me. My dog might feel differently about it.

What if it affects one's subconscious enjoyment of something, without one's realizing? Perhaps over time, there are differences someone has trouble pinpointing in a test and they end up growing attached to the sound of it more but can't figure out if it actually sounds better, they just feel more comfortable with it for some reason. It seems to irritate them less, or they notice that they've simply enjoyed music more on it than they have that other device.

 

[bigshot]

If there isn't any audible difference between two players, I'd buy the one with the best features and user interface, or whichever is cheaper and I'd put a sticker of a cartoon character on it to enhance my subconscious enjoyment of it.

 

[TheTrace]

Interesting.. so an iPhone DAC is as good as needed for playback? I have an Axon 7 that's supposed to have a dedicated DAC built in and a chord mojo (which I'm assuming is super overkill after reading everything in this thread).

In a scenario where my phone (iPhone or Axon 7, I've had both) doesn't suffice for volume for my headphones (Nighthawks) and I resort to my Chord Mojo to get the job done (which it does) is that due to the DAC performance or something else that contributes to the ability of driving the headphones? I've always heard that Mojo actually doesn't have a headphone amplifier so I'm not sure why it's able to drive the headphones better.

I was looking at a Hugo 2 which is far beyond my grasp financially and a WM1A for an all in one solution, but the more comparisons I find and the more I see people talk about any of these units, the less of a point I see in spending anymore than I have and I feel like I'm coming to the conclusion that the Mojo would be all that's needed (If that isn't overkill already.)

If there's any benefit to using a DAC with a phone I'm giving great thought to just getting a dragonfly for portable use (but with the phone I have that may not even be necessary) and use Mojo for my home setup.

Also where do desktop DACs and amps fit into this equation?

Thanks to anyone willing to help or provide some clarity on these matters.

 

[bigshot]

The DAC in an iPhone sounds as good to human ears as any other DAC, no matter if they're portable or standalone home DACs. You might need to amp an iPhone, depending on the headphones you use. But good headphone amps aren't very expensive- should be able to find one for $50 to $100. I use Oppo PM-1s and they don't need amping. Perfect combo. I have an Oppo HA-1, but I really don't know what to use it for. It sounds the same with the HA-1 as it does straight out of the iPhone or my Oppo BD-103 player.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/lightning-adapter-audio-quality.htm

 

[JaeYoon]

Interesting.. so an iPhone DAC is as good as needed for playback? I have an Axon 7 that's supposed to have a dedicated DAC built in and a chord mojo (which I'm assuming is super overkill after reading everything in this thread).

In a scenario where my phone (iPhone or Axon 7, I've had both) doesn't suffice for volume for my headphones (Nighthawks) and I resort to my Chord Mojo to get the job done (which it does) is that due to the DAC performance or something else that contributes to the ability of driving the headphones? I've always heard that Mojo actually doesn't have a headphone amplifier so I'm not sure why it's able to drive the headphones better.

I was looking at a Hugo 2 which is far beyond my grasp financially and a WM1A for an all in one solution, but the more comparisons I find and the more I see people talk about any of these units, the less of a point I see in spending anymore than I have and I feel like I'm coming to the conclusion that the Mojo would be all that's needed (If that isn't overkill already.)

If there's any benefit to using a DAC with a phone I'm giving great thought to just getting a dragonfly for portable use (but with the phone I have that may not even be necessary) and use Mojo for my home setup.

Also where do desktop DACs and amps fit into this equation?

Thanks to anyone willing to help or provide some clarity on these matters.

Yeah that's how they get you.

Speaking of sony's w1ma
When you buy sony w1ma. Someone will always say. But why!? The W1mZ has way better instrument seperation! Soundstage is noticeably deeper and wider. Not only that it's more organic sounding!!

Not only that don't forget to put the "audiophile soldiering" that sony put in that supposedly increases clarity of vocals on sony's own website for zx 300.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/objectivists-board-room.769647/page-262#post-13740554
Check out castle of arghs post on sony.

 

[castleofargh]

What if it affects one's subconscious enjoyment of something, without one's realizing? Perhaps over time, there are differences someone has trouble pinpointing in a test and they end up growing attached to the sound of it more but can't figure out if it actually sounds better, they just feel more comfortable with it for some reason. It seems to irritate them less, or they notice that they've simply enjoyed music more on it than they have that other device.

I have to go with bigshot on this.
when for the love of sport, I try to justify this hypothesis, I end up with 2 main situations:
- 1/ I keep making assumptions just for the sake of trying to be right about a counter intuitive hypothesis, which is never a good sign and "Occam's razor" keeps flashing in my brain.
- 2/ or I just need to reject everything I know about myself and all the research done on humans in general, and consider that I'm impervious to bias. you know like some half baked professional reviewer who argues that he doesn't need controls for his reviews because he's experienced enough "lololololo lololo lololol...". if I do that silly thing, then of course I can only imagine DACs influencing me through sound and sound alone. so if I can't notice the difference consciously, it must be unconscious. perfectly rational thinking, as long as the axioms are out of this world.

Interesting.. so an iPhone DAC is as good as needed for playback? I have an Axon 7 that's supposed to have a dedicated DAC built in and a chord mojo (which I'm assuming is super overkill after reading everything in this thread).

In a scenario where my phone (iPhone or Axon 7, I've had both) doesn't suffice for volume for my headphones (Nighthawks) and I resort to my Chord Mojo to get the job done (which it does) is that due to the DAC performance or something else that contributes to the ability of driving the headphones? I've always heard that Mojo actually doesn't have a headphone amplifier so I'm not sure why it's able to drive the headphones better.

I was looking at a Hugo 2 which is far beyond my grasp financially and a WM1A for an all in one solution, but the more comparisons I find and the more I see people talk about any of these units, the less of a point I see in spending anymore than I have and I feel like I'm coming to the conclusion that the Mojo would be all that's needed (If that isn't overkill already.)

If there's any benefit to using a DAC with a phone I'm giving great thought to just getting a dragonfly for portable use (but with the phone I have that may not even be necessary) and use Mojo for my home setup.

Also where do desktop DACs and amps fit into this equation?

Thanks to anyone willing to help or provide some clarity on these matters.

the Mojo is a DAC/amp so yes it does have an amplifier which is the reason why you can go louder on your headphone. a DAC in itself doesn't have much to do with it unless it outputs way less than 1 or 2V.
you'll get better help in the headphone's topic or asking around in the "portable source gear" section. but just as a general tip, if you wish to have something truly portable, look for a DAP with a fair amount of power output into low impedance loads for the nighthawk(sony DAPs might not satisfy such criteria). and if you look into desktop use, then there is really no point in purchasing tiny portable gears. chances are you'll just pay more for less.

 

[JaeYoon]

Interesting.. so an iPhone DAC is as good as needed for playback? I have an Axon 7 that's supposed to have a dedicated DAC built in and a chord mojo (which I'm assuming is super overkill after reading everything in this thread).

In a scenario where my phone (iPhone or Axon 7, I've had both) doesn't suffice for volume for my headphones (Nighthawks) and I resort to my Chord Mojo to get the job done (which it does) is that due to the DAC performance or something else that contributes to the ability of driving the headphones? I've always heard that Mojo actually doesn't have a headphone amplifier so I'm not sure why it's able to drive the headphones better.

I was looking at a Hugo 2 which is far beyond my grasp financially and a WM1A for an all in one solution, but the more comparisons I find and the more I see people talk about any of these units, the less of a point I see in spending anymore than I have and I feel like I'm coming to the conclusion that the Mojo would be all that's needed (If that isn't overkill already.)

If there's any benefit to using a DAC with a phone I'm giving great thought to just getting a dragonfly for portable use (but with the phone I have that may not even be necessary) and use Mojo for my home setup.

Also where do desktop DACs and amps fit into this equation?

Thanks to anyone willing to help or provide some clarity on these matters.

I forgot to mention, you can get some cheap DAPs that can for sure run Nighthawks.

a not so cheap solution would be Cayin i5 (dap) for instance is strong enough to run headphones. It's sold on musictek for $400 though.

but I honestly think you should be good enough with mojo, it might be bothersome to carry both, but you can benefit from it considering you have headphones.

 

[TheTrace]

The DAC in an iPhone sounds as good to human ears as any other DAC, no matter if they're portable or standalone home DACs. You might need to amp an iPhone, depending on the headphones you use. But good headphone amps aren't very expensive- should be able to find one for $50 to $100. I use Oppo PM-1s and they don't need amping. Perfect combo. I have an Oppo HA-1, but I really don't know what to use it for. It sounds the same with the HA-1 as it does straight out of the iPhone or my Oppo BD-103 player.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/lightning-adapter-audio-quality.htm

Thank you for that information, I remember reading a while ago about that attachment, it made me feel as if I picked the wrong time to get out of the iPhone game lol. Luckily I still have an iPod touch to reapply those benefits if I wished.

On an unrelated note, thank you for your advocacy of AAC 256, it was really helpful when my music library and archives were coming into fruition.

Yeah that's how they get you.

Speaking of sony's w1ma
When you buy sony w1ma. Someone will always say. But why!? The W1mZ has way better instrument seperation! Soundstage is noticeably deeper and wider. Not only that it's more organic sounding!!

Not only that don't forget to put the "audiophile soldiering" that sony put in that supposedly increases clarity of vocals on sony's own website for zx 300.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/objectivists-board-room.769647/page-262#post-13740554
Check out castle of arghs post on sony.

Yeah I've noticed that and have gotten frustrated looking at comparisons for that reason. There are a number of people who couldn't hear differences, but more than likely because of the price, there's always a few that come in and speak on random "superior" qualities that the more expensive device possesses.

It's a shame because Sony does make quality products, I hate when any company that truly amazing work participates in that, it leaves little room for trust.

I was considering a WM1A on a black friday sale if the deal was sweet enough, I'm reconsidering currently though.

I forgot to mention, you can get some cheap DAPs that can for sure run Nighthawks.

a not so cheap solution would be Cayin i5 (dap) for instance is strong enough to run headphones. It's sold on musictek for $400 though.

but I honestly think you should be good enough with mojo, it might be bothersome to carry both, but you can benefit from it considering you have headphones.

I'm probably going to just stay with the Mojo because I've never gotten the feeling of anything degrading over time, only about how new item X sounds better because of this update, that number and the third.

I just always wanted an all in one solution that could drive even really difficult headphones, but I can live with the Mojo being an attachment. I have my phone for mobile use and if a DAP enticing enough releases I'll give it a look.

Thank you all for your help it's much appreciated.

 

[JaeYoon]

Thank you for that information, I remember reading a while ago about that attachment, it made me feel as if I picked the wrong time to get out of the iPhone game lol. Luckily I still have an iPod touch to reapply those benefits if I wished.

On an unrelated note, thank you for your advocacy of AAC 256, it was really helpful when my music library and archives were coming into fruition.

Yeah I've noticed that and have gotten frustrated looking at comparisons for that reason. There are a number of people who couldn't hear differences, but more than likely because of the price, there's always a few that come in and speak on random "superior" qualities that the more expensive device possesses.

It's a shame because Sony does make quality products, I hate when any company that truly amazing work participates in that, it leaves little room for trust.

I was considering a WM1A on a black friday sale if the deal was sweet enough, I'm reconsidering currently though.
I'm probably going to just stay with the Mojo because I've never gotten the feeling of anything degrading over time, only about how new item X sounds better because of this update, that number and the third.

I just always wanted an all in one solution that could drive even really difficult headphones, but I can live with the Mojo being an attachment. I have my phone for mobile use and if a DAP enticing enough releases I'll give it a look.

Thank you all for your help it's much appreciated.

:d I use sony too if it helps!
I have their Sony XZ Premium Smartphone. I use hiby feature to connect to my Shanling M3S DAP. Control my DAP like a remote control . Technically I found an All-in-one solution.

Leave dap in pocket and pretend it doesn't exist with earphones connected to it. But control it using my Sony phone hiby app for all GUI needs.

But yeah enjoy your mojo! Those marbles are shiny if anything!