What will Pitchfork choose as their #1 album of this decade?
Sep 15, 2009 at 6:15 AM Post #76 of 140
Quote:

Originally Posted by fuseboxx /img/forum/go_quote.gif
why is pitchfork irrelevant and meaningless then?


They are because they speak about music as a whole with their lame lists, and yet they really serve a small population.

That would be like me making a list of the hottest women in the world and only putting blonds in the lists. The list is attempting to speak for all women, and yet it really only serves those who like blonds (yuck!!!).

This is why they are irrelevant and meaningless. The posery is palpable.
 
Sep 15, 2009 at 8:31 AM Post #78 of 140
Specializing in something doesn't mean becoming irrelevant or meaningless. Quite on the contrary.
However, they could market themselves more openly as a "hipster magazine for hipsters", to avoid the rage of the rest of us, but this hipster aspect becomes quite apparent after skimming through a review or two anyway.

I find Pitchfork to be probably the best source for one certain kind of music information. Too bad it doesn't even begin to cover all of my musical tastes, but it covers one niche really well.
 
Sep 15, 2009 at 1:16 PM Post #80 of 140
Quote:

Originally Posted by fuseboxx /img/forum/go_quote.gif
So pretty much all music publications are irrelevant and meaningless, then?


i find allmusic.com is often useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Comfy /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Specializing in something doesn't mean becoming irrelevant or meaningless. Quite on the contrary.
However, they could market themselves more openly as a "hipster magazine for hipsters", to avoid the rage of the rest of us, but this hipster aspect becomes quite apparent after skimming through a review or two anyway.



i'm not in a rage about Pitchfork. but i tend to disregard "look-at-me-i'm-writing!" writing. even more so when it's written while wearing a self-referential t-shirt.
 
Sep 16, 2009 at 12:50 AM Post #82 of 140
Quote:

Originally Posted by fuseboxx /img/forum/go_quote.gif
So pretty much all music publications are irrelevant and meaningless, then?


Maybe I am not making myself clear.

If Pitchfork labled themselves as an Indie site, and they had lists which stated "Best Indie Rock Album of the Decade" and so on, I would have no problem with them whatsoever.

Unfortunately "Hipster" is not a genre of music, so when they try to cover the gamut of music with their lists that say "Best Album of the Decade" with nothing more than Indie Rock and a few other token albums of other genres, they ARE making themselves irrelevant and meaningless.

I really do not think it gets any clearer than that.
 
Sep 16, 2009 at 2:07 AM Post #83 of 140
You are quite right about the "best album of the decade" list - it will not be a comprehensive list at all, even though the average hipster tries hard to nibble at the best parts of all genres.
In general, "the best 100 albums of whatever" lists are irrelevant and meaningless. I for one couldn't care less about the Pink Floyd album and the Beatles album that ALWAYS top these lists. Or OK Computer for that matter. Music just isn't comparable in absolute terms, it has no measurable value, and that is its greatest strength too. Music is about individual emotions of the listener, so these lists are irrelevant and meaningless per definition.

Pitchfork is not irrelevant as a specialized site catering to specific interests, but their "100 best" list is.
 
Sep 16, 2009 at 5:08 AM Post #84 of 140
Quote:

Originally Posted by roadtonowhere08 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Maybe I am not making myself clear.

If Pitchfork labled themselves as an Indie site, and they had lists which stated "Best Indie Rock Album of the Decade" and so on, I would have no problem with them whatsoever.

Unfortunately "Hipster" is not a genre of music, so when they try to cover the gamut of music with their lists that say "Best Album of the Decade" with nothing more than Indie Rock and a few other token albums of other genres, they ARE making themselves irrelevant and meaningless.

I really do not think it gets any clearer than that.



...which brings me back to my original question of why Pitchfork is irrelevant and meaningless. To say that Pitchfork is irrelevant and meaningless means you are either very misinformed or you really hate the site that much to stick to such an irrational opinion.

Just to illustrate the amount of influence that Pitchfork has on listeners worldwide, there was once this discussion on a popular-but-now-defuct private music sharing website on how Pitchfork reviews influence how torrents on their trackers were seeded. The particular review iirc was The Twilight Sad's "Fourteen Autumns & Fifteen Winters" which appeared on PF's Best New Music section. And as per the statistics of the site showed, the torrent made an unprecedented jump from a few hundred to thousands of downloads overnight.

It's also not as if indie music caters to such a minority of listeners. Quite the opposite actually. So why irrelevant and meaningless?

Do all music publications have to specify a caveat saying that their reviews only cover this and that genre? And if they don't, it should automatically mean that they're trying to cover the gamut of music? I think readers should be responsible and educated enough to make that distinction for themselves.

FWIW, if it does so happen that "Kid A" comes out as their #1 album for this decade, then they probably chose the correct pick for the gamut of music in that case.
 
Sep 16, 2009 at 5:16 AM Post #85 of 140
Quote:

Originally Posted by Comfy /img/forum/go_quote.gif
In general, "the best 100 albums of whatever" lists are irrelevant and meaningless. I for one couldn't care less about the Pink Floyd album and the Beatles album that ALWAYS top these lists. Or OK Computer for that matter. Music just isn't comparable in absolute terms, it has no measurable value, and that is its greatest strength too. Music is about individual emotions of the listener, so these lists are irrelevant and meaningless per definition.


I agree and disagree. Music appreciation is all about the individual, but that doesn't mean "best of" lists are worth nothing.

If you have 1000 people and 999 of them picked "Abbey Road" as the best Beatles album... then statistically speaking, the remaining one other person might like that album the most out of all the Beatles' albums as well. It all boils down to the listener listening to everything and deciding for himself... but chances are that he will. This is why I like lists/charts that are based on aggregate opinions of a lot of people... they are the best type of recommendations you can find... Especially if you are gathering this aggregate opinion from a group of people that you know you share your musical taste with.
 
Sep 16, 2009 at 5:19 AM Post #86 of 140
Quote:

Originally Posted by fuseboxx /img/forum/go_quote.gif
If you have 1000 people and 999 of them picked "Abbey Road" as the best Beatles album... then statistically speaking, the remaining one other person might like that album the most out of all the Beatles' albums as well. It all boils down to the listener listening to everything and deciding for himself...


I know you were merely making a random example and obviously its just for fun......but I thought it would be really amusing if 999 out of random 1000 people thought Abbey Road was the Beatles best work:)
 
Sep 16, 2009 at 5:23 AM Post #87 of 140
Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMahler /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I know you were merely making a random example and obviously its just for fun......but I thought it would be really amusing if 999 out of random 1000 people thought Abbey Road was the Beatles best work:)


Yeah, it's unrealistic but I was just making a point
tongue.gif
 
Sep 16, 2009 at 5:42 AM Post #88 of 140
Quote:

Originally Posted by fuseboxx /img/forum/go_quote.gif
...which brings me back to my original question of why Pitchfork is irrelevant and meaningless. To say that Pitchfork is irrelevant and meaningless means you are either very misinformed or you really hate the site that much to stick to such an irrational opinion.


I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree here. The circular logic is making me want to bang my head on my keyboard. The post you quoted outlines my reasons. If you do not agree with it, that is fine, but I really cannot say it any other way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuseboxx /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Just to illustrate the amount of influence that Pitchfork has on listeners worldwide, there was once this discussion on a popular-but-now-defuct private music sharing website on how Pitchfork reviews influence how torrents on their trackers were seeded. The particular review iirc was The Twilight Sad's "Fourteen Autumns & Fifteen Winters" which appeared on PF's Best New Music section. And as per the statistics of the site showed, the torrent made an unprecedented jump from a few hundred to thousands of downloads overnight.


I never doubted their influence. I am sure it is very widespread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuseboxx /img/forum/go_quote.gif
It's also not as if indie music caters to such a minority of listeners. Quite the opposite actually. So why irrelevant and meaningless?


Again, I know there is a very large audience for that genre. I am speaking about them discrediting themselves with their obviously biased lists. I will not get into it again, so we will have to agree to disagree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuseboxx /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Do all music publications have to specify a caveat saying that their reviews only cover this and that genre? And if they don't, it should automatically mean that they're trying to cover the gamut of music? I think readers should be responsible and educated enough to make that distinction for themselves.


Almost every "Greatest..." list that I have seen has some form of genre adherence. "Greatest metal band", "Greatest rock album", and so on. They are making a list based on guidelines. They are not lumping all genres together and picking heavily from one genre. That is my objection. They need to clarify which genres they are basing this list on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuseboxx /img/forum/go_quote.gif
FWIW, if it does so happen that "Kid A" comes out as their #1 album for this decade, then they probably chose the correct pick for the gamut of music in that case.


That is your opinion. That album would not be in my top 100 of the decade.
 
Sep 16, 2009 at 5:52 AM Post #89 of 140
Quote:

Originally Posted by roadtonowhere08 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Almost every "Greatest..." list that I have seen has some form of genre adherence. "Greatest metal band", "Greatest rock album", and so on. They are making a list based on guidelines. They are not lumping all genres together and picking heavily from one genre. That is my objection. They need to clarify which genres they are basing this list on.


First of all, there are so many "greatest of..." lists that don't specify genres. And secondly, if you know pitchfork (and a lot of people do), you should already know what type of albums they pick. That's what I'm talking about when I say that the readers also have a responsibility to know how to use the opinions that Pitchfork dishes out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadtonowhere08 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
That is your opinion. That album would not be in my top 100 of the decade.


I suppose this is to be expected. It's definitely consistent with your I-hate-pitchfork-and-the-music-they-review-so-they're-irrelevant-and-meaningless-to-music rant.
 
Sep 16, 2009 at 6:20 AM Post #90 of 140
I think Pitchfork gets a lot of unwarranted hate, but at the same time I'm also very ambivalent about them. I used to be an avid read back in high school, which would be 4-5 years ago and what I'd consider their peak. Sure, the arrogance was a tad annoying, but that's part of the shtick. Their historical lists were fabulous, however, and covered the 60s, 70s, and 80s fantastically. It was awesome to see eclectic bands like Can, Neu!, James Chance & the Contortions, Gang of Four, My Bloody Valentine, Funkadelic, Cabaret Voltaire, Public Enemy, Pere Ubu, PiL, etc. - really a who's who of the most forward-thinking, influential, and progressive groups of the past half-century. Why even pick nits about these lists - they're not going to involve mainstream acts for the most part - that's not what they want nor their audience. That they know their history is very commendable and something I've always enjoyed. They also had very creative and well-crafted articles, along with the occasional bizarre outburst resembling a dadaist essay which combined form and content superbly.

I've found that much of this has been lost in the past couple years. The site's form - now a glossy web 2.0 zine - has taken priority over the content and there aren't as many unique columns any more. I haven't touched the site in the past couple years as I started sensing a downward spiral from the start of their video initiatives, which signalled to me that they knew just how influential they were and started ignoring the kitsch that drew me toward them in the first place.

While the hipster vibe definitely rubs many people the wrong way, they are catering to a certain audience. Still, the posturing and thinly-veiled irony does get old. But I think the hate largely derives from the all-encompassing role the site has assumed in today's music industry. Positive reviews have literally made a band, many of whom I don't think deserved it, and of course the opposite is also true - many careers have been ruined due to the power of a few numerical digits. It is disturbing and resembles the sort of power RS had in it's heyday. Other blogs, zines, and publications are often ignored with p4k being the sole critical influence. This alienating effect hasn't gone unnoticed and I've had similar sentiments expressed to me from some colleagues. No, it's not irrelevant, perhaps to an individual or a collective of such - often who have no interest in alternative genres - but like it or not, p4k is largely influential and relevant to the modern music industry.
 

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