[Thunderkiss]

I find the majority of reviews here on Head-Fi to be very informative and enjoyable to read.
 
I also enjoy reviews from websites Hifisenses, AudiophileON, cymbacavum, Ohm Image, Innerfedelity and Lachlikesathing.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Music Alchemist It's one thing to point out that we (or maybe just you) don't have ways of gauging things like bass impact or soundstage from measurements. It's quite another thing entirely to go on to claim that headphones all measure the same in these departments--that'd be like saying all Asians are clones of each other because you can't tell them apart with your eyes...

 

[RRod]

 It's quite another thing entirely to go on to claim that headphones all measure the same in these departments--that'd be like saying all Asians are clones of each other because you can't tell them apart with your eyes...

 
He already clarified that he did *not* claim this:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/765326/what-of-equipment-reviews-do-you-believe/60#post_11674849

 

[Music Alchemist]

@Music Alchemist It's one thing to point out that we (or maybe just you) don't have ways of gauging things like bass impact or soundstage from measurements. It's quite another thing entirely to go on to claim that headphones all measure the same in these departments--that'd be like saying all Asians are clones of each other because you can't tell them apart with your eyes...

 
And where exactly did I claim this? Quote my post, please. ...Because I did not claim anything like this. I said, or at least meant, that some headphones measure the same in the bass on an FR graph. Even when this is the case, some of the other bass measurements may differ. I was asking about how you measure soundstage in the first place, because I don't know how to or what measurements to look at to see a headphone's soundstage. If anything, I was saying (repeatedly, I might add) that different headphones tend to have different soundstage and imaging. I never once claimed that all headphones are the same in any respect. People seriously need to actually read my posts...

 

[arnyk]

Sure, read JD's papers, like I know you have. He's very specific as to the design constraints and provides a lot of MLSSA-derived measurements. Of course, you know that. Listening is definitely out of the question, but apparently trying to obfuscate and dilute the issue isn't. Sad .

Measure the size of the soundstage with an actual measuring device. Like on this planet?

Edit: text, trying to be nice

 
I don't even know which JD you are referring to. How could I read his papers?
 
 
... edit:
 
Well I thought about it and this must be a reference to John Dunlavy who regrettably has been dead since 2007.
 
In general I'm not going to argue with a dead man.
 
if you want to make a point about something Dunlavy published,
do try to make an attempt at something like a citation of it.
 
His area of expertise was speakers, and AFAIK his reference headphones were Sony 7506s. At least they were the last time we conversed.

 

[Shaffer]

I don't even know which JD you are referring to. How could I read his papers?

You were usually a little more brave than, "Who, me?"

Well I thought about it and this must be a reference to John Dunlavy who regrettably has been dead since 2007.

How could that ever occur to you, as we're talking about Dunlavy speakers?

This is just silly.

In general I'm not going to argue with a dead man.

What's there to argue about? You claimed to be able to measure the soundstage with, essentially, a ruler. One of the most absurd claims ever posted on this board. You want proof? Go next door to your neighbor's house, who actually has a stereo, and move his speakers.

if you want to make a point about something Dunlavy published,
do try to make an attempt at something like a citation of it.

I think that first you need to show us how to measure the size of the soundstage with a ruler. Your claim.

His area of expertise was speakers, and AFAIK his reference headphones were Sony 7506s. At least they were the last time we conversed.

You spoke with JD? Frankly, this is extremely difficult to believe, as I knew John. Out of respect I won't continue this, but I will say that the nature of his illness would have made your latest claim impossible, given the time frame. I'm genuinely disgusted.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

I think that first you need to show us how to measure the size of the soundstage with a ruler. Your claim.

I think somebody's sarcasm sensor is broken

 

[WraithApe]

I may have misunderstood, but wasn't @arnyk referring to measuring the soundstage of the original recording, as opposed to soundstage reproduction? i.e. the distance between the recording mics.

 

[castleofargh]

as soundstage comes from things like delay between left and right ears, and changes in the FR from the shape of the ear and body, I would suspect soundstage to be at least in part dependent on the person listening. for example wouldn't a smaller head be used to delays between both ears from a specific position that are shorter than a big head? thus listening to the same playback, I imagine it may place the instrument at a slightly different place for each head.
 
now the hd800 does have a better separation and gives an impressive sense of space compared to many other headphones I've tried. so for that I'm with music alchemist. but is it because of a specific signature I have never tried killing the upper medium that would be needed to get the kind of sound I find balanced, does it ruin the soundstage in any way? is it thanks to a particularly good frequency extension? is it thanks to how strongly the membrane is damped? is it because less sound comes back from the bouncing on the cup? did they make a special effort to limit crosstalk in the cable? I can't imagine only one parameter to be responsible for soundstage when it's a construct of our mind.
when I change the EQ on a headphone, it affects the soundstage most of the time if it's significant. and for 3D simulations, can't say if it's normal, but it sometimes takes me a few seconds to get in place. but most of all, as time passes, it feels like it reverts back to what I'm used to hear(same with crossfeed). I imagine it's my brain trying to intake the differences and compensate for them as a way to adapt or something like that. maybe it's more effective as I always listen to the same albums so I know them very very well? but for me it's a little like when using tainted glasses for a few hours, you forget that they are tainted until your remove them ^_^.
 
@Shaffer I don't remember reading from you something nice. I've read interesting stuff, I don't always agree but I often do. but you're always so aggressive man.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

[@=/u/384889/Music-Alchemist]@Music Alchemist[/@] It's one thing to point out that we (or maybe just you) don't have ways of gauging things like bass impact or soundstage from measurements. It's quite another thing entirely to go on to claim that headphones all measure the same in these departments--that'd be like saying all Asians are clones of each other because you can't tell them apart with your eyes...

And where exactly did I claim this? Quote my post, please. ...Because I did not claim anything like this. I said, or at least meant, that some headphones measure the same in the bass on an FR graph. Even when this is the case, some of the other bass measurements may differ. I was asking about how you measure soundstage in the first place, because I don't know how to or what measurements to look at to see a headphone's soundstage. If anything, I was saying (repeatedly, I might add) that different headphones tend to have different soundstage and imaging. I never once claimed that all headphones are the same in any respect. People seriously need to actually read my posts...

In all honesty, I did not see you say that--I was just going by your initial claim regarding bass and projecting from there with a few glances down the pages.



But I have seen the claim I was talking about, levelled against measurements countless times. "Here's two headphones, they measure the same yet sound so different. So much for measurements!" Me: "show me ONE measurement that they are 'identical' in??" h34r:

 

[Shaffer]

@Shaffer
I don't remember reading from you something nice. I've read interesting stuff, I don't always agree but I often do. but you're always so aggressive man.

Read my comments in a tongue-in-cheek tone. You may see them differently.

 

[Music Alchemist]

In all honesty, I did not see you say that--I was just going by your initial claim regarding bass and projecting from there with a few glances down the pages.

But I have seen the claim I was talking about, levelled against measurements countless times. "Here's two headphones, they measure the same yet sound so different. So much for measurements!" Me: "show me ONE measurement that they are 'identical' in??"

 
Well, I used bass as an example because some headphones do have more or less a perfectly flat line at 30 Hz. But then there are the other parameters for bass measurements, which have been discussed throughout this thread. I never meant all headphones are the same; just that some have similar or identical measurements in a few ways.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Well, I used bass as an example because some headphones do have more or less a perfectly flat line at 30 Hz. But then there are the other parameters for bass measurements, which have been discussed throughout this thread. I never meant all headphones are the same; just that some have similar or identical measurements in a few ways.

Well I don't know about "same" but they do sound much more similar to me than before when I unravel their locak peaks and dips in FR using parametric EQ:



I once heard arguments that I should leave these peaks and dips be as they are the natural interaction with my ears, to which I say, the locations of these peaks and dips are unique to each model of headphone, they can't ALL be the right natural interactions can they? I don't hear any correlation with any peaks I get from my speakers either, if any.

They also all sound much better to my ears after such tuning. Tonality, instrument separation, etc. etc.

I also have a spatialization setup that's sounding mighty fine to me these days


Here, stereo input is split into mid, left and right channels (not by your usual M/S conversion, but by actual DSP that cuts out center-panned sound from the rest of the audio) and processed by two virtualization plugins dedicated to putting up virtual speakers at 60 degrees left, center and 60 degrees right respectively. The result is same wide sound field you've come to expect from headphones (compared to speakers at 30 degrees left and right), but in a much more realistic presentation than the "3 blobs" soundstage you usually get. Finally they run through an EQ that compensates for the change in tonality caused by the plugins (modelled using impulse response analysis).

Not shown in this screen: the usual headphone profile filter, de-esser filter.

One of these days I'm going to get personalized HRTF measurements from speakers and headphones and get perfect soundstage out of my headphones that way, until then, this will have to do

 

[Joe Bloggs]

You spoke with JD? Frankly, this is extremely difficult to believe, as I knew John. Out of respect I won't continue this, but I will say that the nature of his illness would have made your latest claim impossible, given the time frame. I'm genuinely disgusted.

What's the time frame? Arny was a big name in the audio field by no later than 1977.

 

[arnyk]

What's there to argue about? You claimed to be able to measure the soundstage with, essentially, a ruler. One of the most absurd claims ever posted on this board. You want proof? Go next door to your neighbor's house, who actually has a stereo, and move his speakers.

 
You are obviously totally unaware of the well known fact that a sound stage is a real place that some of us are trying to provide a sonic recreation of.
 
As a professional recording engineer I'm rather acutely aware of this fact, but obviously you have not a clue. Among other things I have made test recordings that attempted to provide a usable mapping between the live performance and it as reproduced by both headphones and speakers.
 
Furthermore you seem to have no awareness of audio as an attempt recreate the sonic properties of live performances.