[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by obobskivich /img/forum/go_quote.gif and now I'm "ethically wrong" for taking offense to being barked at because nobody has actually gotten my point so lets give the "right" post: yeah R10's are just AWESOME and are best ever, price is totally justified and they're a complete steal at $5000, you should buy them, if you ever question this opinion you're just a moron and don't know and ignore that my original point was uh: [size=medium]THEY COST AS MUCH AS A USED CAR PURELY DUE TO THEIR RARITY AND THE LAW OF DIMINISHING RETURNS[/size] you CAN NOT convince me that these are 8x better than ATH W5000's, or 2-3x better than O2's, or 5-6x better than K1000's, giving them 10% is QUITE A LOT wrt law of diminishing returns and nowhere did I say they're "bad" or that anyone who likes them is "wrong", I simply said they're quite expensive due to their rarity, hype, and the law of diminishing returns (which actually supports them being "better" than cheaper things, just not in a linear fashion)

They are very expensive due to the fact that there are now very hard to find, (but at the time they were in stock their price was around 2K, and nowadays 2K is the cost of any mediocre tube amp) on top, of being an extremely unique sounding headphone, with a unique and magic presentation, very comfortable, and nice looking, made with very exclusive materials, and they are not, and never were, a mass market product, to the point that have been really hard for any other manufacturer, and even for Sony itself, to mimic, and not even get close to what those headphones offer musically talking...
Those in that list you mentioned are not in that league at all, and in my very personal point of view, I consider them inferior to many others a lot cheaper...Not only the R-10...to be honest I do not like any of those, and I love the R-10...
Now if you consider them worthy or not, that is very personal point (I will not pay neither the price tag they have nowadays, even less given that we have no spare parts for them) but the same way people get a Rolex or a Ferrari. Are those 10 to a 100 times, better than their competitors? Of course not, but the price is just justified by the exclusivity and the existence of a market for them...And I know that pretty much we are all aware of that...

 

[tintin47]

I have very limited experience with the R10, but when I heard them, I was immediately blown away by a relatively small thing: the realism of the treble. Cymbal crashes sounded like they were next to my ear and drums took on a completely new life within the music. While they did have fantastic accuracy and very nice mids, I think that the treble is what made them awesome to me-- It wasn't harsh, it was just almost perfect, and I haven't heard another can that felt like that. I think that the treble was what provided most of the "whoa this sounds real" factor, but I am not sure whether that is a good thing or not. Again, I only heard them for about an hour.

 

[obobskivich]

yeah but at $2k, they're at "rough market value" for other flagship hp's, regardless of what opinion you hold of any of these:

W5000 is list at around ~$1600
HD800 is list at around ~$1400
PS1000 is list at around ~$1700
Edition 9 was list at around ~$1400
Ed 8's are supposed to be around the same price as Ed 9's
et cetera

I'm not saying W5000's = R10's (yet again, reading my posts is apparently quite hard for some, because I'm posting something other than "R10 ARE BEST EVER BEST EVER ULTIMATE EVER BEST HEADPHONE IN WORLD AWESOME WORTH $5k TOTAL VALUE YOU SHOULD BUY IF YOU DISAGREE YOU QUESTIONED MY RELIGION AND MUST DIE"), I'm saying you've got no chance of convincing me the R10's are legitimately close to 10x the quality, ability, whatever of W5000's

and the continued attempts at proving who can better render the constellation urion just because you can throw a block of text at me about how your opinion says this and a Ferrari is "better because of its allure" is really getting old

either accept that I've actually agreed with you before even hearing your opinion, or post something constructive

 

[Cool_Torpedo]

Don't take it personal obobs, I don't like arguing just for the sake of it, nor I'm defending anything. I have no religions, less in audio matters.

My point is just that speaking about the sound quality, or judging the price/performance ratio of something you don't know, is quite pointless. I don't care why the R10 cost that much these days. It's not solely for their sound quality, that's sure, but it's not only for their rarity. There are lots of phones even rarer, with their own sonic merits, which sell for peanuts.
The R10 have very unique sound features -which you may appreciate, like or just hate- that no other headphone I've tried has. Those features have a price, and also you need to have listened to the phones to know them. You may gratuitously say that those features are only a 1% or 10% over other top notch phones, but if you don't have them, you are missing them, so how much would someone loving those features pay to have them? It's completely a personal matter, which is more related to sensitivity and priorities than anything else.
So in your opinion they can be overpriced, not worth it and so on, but for other people their price might be well justified, and those people deserve some respect, perhaps understanding, moreover accounting that you haven't ever tried the phones.

I think that something that obscures your judging powers is that trying to measure subjective appreciations by percentages of yours, worsened for the assignation of a monetary value to them. Enjoying music, and doing it deeply, isn't something you can measure, nor predict for purely objective features, and that cannot be priced.
I for one appreciate those unique features of the R10 but I could equally live very happy without them, it's not like oxygen. I like their sound and how they make me feel when I listen to some music that I love. You can be sure that not their price, nor their supposed "cult status" or rarity has anything to do in my sonic perception of them.
In the end every single one of us has to decide how much is worth spending into this hobby's gadgets, and which are his goals. I respect and partially share your opinion that no headphone is worth that money, probably no headphone is worth more than 300 bucks. However things can't be judged under objective figures when we're speaking of very subjective matters.

 

[purk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeperry /img/forum/go_quote.gif the R10 is utterly bright and bass shy...but the SS is apparently even better than on the cd3k and the big wood enclosures kill most inner up resonances...plus they're rare and elite stuff!

You probably have heard the bass light version. My R10 has plenty of bass. And yes, they sounds fantastic! If you demand some isolation, they are the best there is as I still prefer the HE-90 is leakage of sound is allowed. IMO, of course.

 

[obobskivich]

I love how "you have no opinion of price/performance" is a valid arguement, whenever I try to point out something which costs as much, if not more than, a good used car might be a bit overpriced

I could care less how "good" you find them to be (or how "good" they are), how "offended" your sensibilities are, or what you feel is "inferior", at $5500 they're overpriced, period. ($5500 is too much for headphones, plain and simple, and I don't care how big your willy is, $5500 is too much for headphones, was yesterday, is today, and surprise, will be tomorrow)

 

[mark2410]

well i say they are "worth" 5K so long as people are willing to pay that for them. its thier money and if it makes them happy then good luck to them.

personally i think its a crazy price but then if i was far wealthier than i am i might think of 5k as being nothing

 

[Cool_Torpedo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by obobskivich /img/forum/go_quote.gif I love how "you have no opinion of price/performance" is a valid arguement, whenever I try to point out something which costs as much, if not more than, a good used car might be a bit overpriced I could care less how "good" you find them to be (or how "good" they are), how "offended" your sensibilities are, or what you feel is "inferior", at $5500 they're overpriced, period. ($5500 is too much for headphones, plain and simple, and I don't care how big your willy is, $5500 is too much for headphones, was yesterday, is today, and surprise, will be tomorrow)

Such declaration of principles is clarifying. If you can't understand why it's pointless that you try to assign a price/performance ratio to something you haven't listened, I'm afraid there's nothing else I can try to discuss with you.
For your tranquility you haven't offended any of my sensibilities or sensitivities. They're just phones that I happen to like, nothing else. And if for you are overpriced, which I again I can agree with if you look at it only under a pseudo-objectivist perspective, then never buy a pair. However let me advise you not to ever listen to them, you might like them ;D

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by obobskivich /img/forum/go_quote.gif I love how "you have no opinion of price/performance" is a valid arguement, whenever I try to point out something which costs as much, if not more than, a good used car might be a bit overpriced I could care less how "good" you find them to be (or how "good" they are), how "offended" your sensibilities are, or what you feel is "inferior", at $5500 they're overpriced, period. ($5500 is too much for headphones, plain and simple, and I don't care how big your willy is, $5500 is too much for headphones, was yesterday, is today, and surprise, will be tomorrow)

The Orpheus system price while in stock, was around $13,000, today cost around the same or more, if you consider what the R10 at 5K plus a good amp at 2-3K offers, you can get two for that price, it is bargain in comparison....

 

[Duggeh]

I wasn't hugely impressed with them at the 2007 UK meet if I'm honest. Too bass shy, too treble happy. Unengaging.

 

[obobskivich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cool_Torpedo /img/forum/go_quote.gif Such declaration of principles is clarifying. If you can't understand why it's pointless that you try to assign a price/performance ratio to something you haven't listened, I'm afraid there's nothing else I can try to discuss with you. For your tranquility you haven't offended any of my sensibilities or sensitivities. They're just phones that I happen to like, nothing else. And if for you are overpriced, which I again I can agree with if you look at it only under a pseudo-objectivist perspective, then never buy a pair. However let me advise you not to ever listen to them, you might like them ;D

lonely up there on your cross?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif The Orpheus system price while in stock, was around $13,000, today cost around the same or more, if you consider what the R10 at 5K plus a good amp at 2-3K offers, you can get two for that price, it is bargain in comparison....

yeah, but that assumes I view the Orpheus as worth the money, which I don't

it also assumes you could purchase two pairs of R10's with no trouble, which you can't

but I do get your point

 

[subtle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by obobskivich /img/forum/go_quote.gif you CAN NOT convince me that these are 8x better than ATH W5000's, or 2-3x better than O2's, or 5-6x better than K1000's, giving them 10% is QUITE A LOT wrt law of diminishing returns

Then **** already and move along.

Why is it that people like you and lucky continue to spew foam at the mouth over this ridiculous law of diminishing returns mantra? If you can't afford to play the game, quit crying about it and let those that can do. In essence, that's really all you and him are constantly doing on this forum. The top headphones are priced the way they are because PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO PAY THAT MUCH FOR THEIR PERFORMANCE. Do you really think the average person out there knows what an R10 or HE90 is? Are you really going to sit here and try and argue the point that people are paying the prices they are for these two headphones ONLY because of their rarity? Are these people just sitting around laughing out loud and stroking their own ego each day at the thought of owning such an expensive headphone, or do you really think they're going around bragging to their friends, the same one's that don't even know what they are, about how much they paid for them? This diminishing returns tripe is just too damn silly. Capitalism is what it is, and in a free market system prices are dictated by supply and demand. I don't even really know why this needs to be explained.

The really hilarious, and truly ignorant, thing about you and lucky is that you two, and I repeat, CAN NOT be convinced that the R10, HE90, etc. are 5-6x "better" than the K1000's, yet you post 5 times in this thread within the first 10 posts trying to convince others that you are right. If you CAN NOT be convinced, why are you wasting so much time and energy trying to do exactly that? This isn't about X-X times better performance and never will be. It's about certain headphones having an extremely unique and seductive sound quality all of their own, and if you want to play the game you have to pay to step up in to the big boy arena. Perhaps one day, many years after you finally finish college, you'll begin to understand that concept.

 

[grawk]

My headphone rig is worth more than my car, because music is more important to me than transportation. Value is an economic construct based on what people who have them are willing to sell them for and what people who want them are willing to buy them for. You can say they're not worth more than a used car, and you're welcome to that opinion.

If it was only the scarcity that made them so valuable, the people who had them who weren't collectors would sell them, but I know of at least 1 pair that isn't for sale that is owned by someone who could care less about their scarcity, only about their sound.

Is scarcity an impact? Of course. But W10VTGs are just as rare, and sell for $450.

And w5000s sell for so little because they sound bad compared to other comparable headphones.

 

[dhp]

blah blah blah law of diminishing returns. You should probably get out of this hobby if you feel so strongly about it.

 

[Canman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by obobskivich /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...reading my posts is apparently quite hard for some, because I'm posting something other than "R10 ARE BEST EVER BEST EVER ULTIMATE EVER BEST HEADPHONE IN WORLD AWESOME WORTH $5k TOTAL VALUE YOU SHOULD BUY IF YOU DISAGREE YOU QUESTIONED MY RELIGION AND MUST DIE"), I'm saying you've got no chance of convincing me the R10's are legitimately close to 10x the quality, ability, whatever of W5000's ....either accept that I've actually agreed with you before even hearing your opinion, or post something constructive

Why are you so cranky today? Please follow your own advice and post something constructive. The law of diminishing returns is a huge factor in audio equipment just like it is most consumer products. Nothing new there. For someone who has never heard an R10 you certainly have a lot to say on the matter. Differing opinions make things more interesting. No one said you have to like the R10 or believe that its worth the price; just realize that your perception of value doesn't include any personal experience. For me, its not worth the price but I understand if it is to someone else.