[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatko /img/forum/go_quote.gif Strickly speaking, written Chinese is in another format .... If they both write down what they speak out from his mouth, i am sure they still cant understand each others YOU in Shanghainese is 儂 YOU in Cantonese is 你 HE in Mandarin is 他 HE in Cantonese is 佢

The characters you have cited are merely the 'sound-alike' character in the Chinese language. People use those 'sound-alikes' to emulate how they would normally speak in their own dialect, specifically to communicate via words that they are from the same region, or speak the same dialect. But no one in their right mind would use "儂" when they actually mean 你, unless it's for the reasons previously stated.

And regarding Chinese characters used in many other languages, like I said before, the nexus of a language is communication. Can Korean communicate with Chinese? Can Chinese communicate with Japanese? Can a person from Shanghai communicate with a person from Hongkong? I think we all know the answer. (in case you dont' know, the answer is no, no, and yes

 

[jmmtn4aj]

I don't believe this.. I've lived in Singapore my whole life (75% Chinese, mostly Cantonese and Hokkien) and am Hakka and Hainanese myself. Though I don't speak those dialects, my parents do, and here plus in the collective months I've spent in China with my dad's friends and business associates from Hangzhou, Suzhou, Beijing and Shanghai, I've never heard anyone refer to these regional dialects as anything but.

Javanese isn't considered a dialect of other languages native to Indonesia because the spelling differs so much. Javanese itself has it's own dialect with different pronunciation, just like Chinese has regional dialects. In Chinese all dialects share the same method of writing, either simplified or traditional.

 

[RYCeT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif NO. even in their written form, they are different; more specifically, the meaning of the words are different, the sentence structures are different, and most importantly the ways their are communicated are different. Same character, like the same letter, does not equate the same language. The nexus of language is communication; can you communicate?

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatko /img/forum/go_quote.gif Strickly speaking, written Chinese is in another format .... If they both write down what they speak out from his mouth, i am sure they still cant understand each others YOU in Shanghainese is 儂 YOU in Cantonese is 你 HE in Mandarin is 他 HE in Cantonese is 佢

Thank's Fatko, so chesebert, I think this matter have been explained but you never answered, do you actually have been exposed to mandarin and cantonese? I've been exposed to both and some head-fier here speak both and can confirm it's 2 different languages which if you understand one, it doesn't mean you'll understand the other. Do you actually want to share ideas or want to troll?

 

[fatko]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RYCeT /img/forum/go_quote.gif Quote this from Cantonese Wikipedia Same writing, can be read in Mandarin, Cantones, Hakka, Taiwanese, Vietnamese, Korean and Japanese with a different pronounciation for each language. Will you say Vietnamese, Korean and Japanese is one of mandarin dialect now?

The history of Mandarin, as i know, it was created due to the complexity of different languages in China, and unified them as an official spoken language in government.
Therefore Mandarin is also known as "Bureaucratic Language" in the past.

 

[jmmtn4aj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif The characters you have cited are merely the 'sound-alike' character in the Chinese language. People use those 'sound-alikes' to emulate how they would normally speak in their own dialect, specifically to communicate via words that they are from the same region, or speak the same dialect. But no one in their right mind would use "儂" when they actually mean 你, unless it's for the reasons previously stated.

Exactly. In China you'll find street signs with common words look the same, bookshops with 'bookshop' as a suffix will have the same characters, supermarkets with 'supermarket' as a suffix will have the same characters, and if you go into a store where you don't speak a regional dialect, write it down and he'll understand it, assuming he is literate. Speeches, articles and papers written by any schooled person in China will follow the same structural rules.

Ask a Shanghainese who knows both shanghaihua and putonghua to write a long sentence in proper zhongwen and he'll write it the same. The only difference in day to day life would be nuances restricted to different cities and indeed different parts of the city, just like with English in the United States you have what many of us outside the US would recognise as gangster speak. Yet in no way would you consider that a different language, right?

EDIT: Back when I was young I asked my mother why I never saw newspapers or essays written in Hokkien. She smiled at me. Back then I thought Hokkien was a completely different language, as many people would spell Hokkien vulgarities phonetically in multiplayer games and such. I believed Hokkien was a language based on the alphabet for awhile. It wasn't till I was older that I realised even the much older first and second generation migrants who could only speak Hokkien.. read the same Chinese newspaper as the younger people who only spoke Mandarin, or other older people who only spoke Cantonese, or Hainanese.

 

[RYCeT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif Can a person from Shanghai communicate with a person from Hongkong? I think we all know the answer. (in case you dont' know, the answer is no, no, and yes

Do you know why it's a yes? Because they speak mandarin

, if one of them speak cantonese, the other won't have a clue.

 

[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RYCeT /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thank's Fatko, so chesebert, I think this matter have been explained but you never answered, do you actually have been exposed to mandarin and cantonese? I've been exposed to both and some head-fier here speak both and can confirm it's 2 different languages which if you understand one, it doesn't mean you'll understand the other. Do you actually want to share ideas or want to troll?

please consult my previous posts regarding an enjoinder to the questions posed;

I am sharing my idea by pointing out you are incorrect in your understanding of the Chinese language; hardly trolling by any standards.

 

[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RYCeT /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do you know why it's a yes? Because they speak mandarin , if one of them speak cantonese, the other won't have a clue.

they can always write it down.

 

[fatko]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmmtn4aj /img/forum/go_quote.gif Exactly. In China you'll find street signs with common words look the same, bookshops with 'bookshop' as a suffix will have the same characters, supermarkets with 'supermarket' as a suffix will have the same characters, and if you go into a store where you don't speak a regional dialect, write it down and he'll understand it, assuming he is literate. Speeches, articles and papers written by any schooled person in China will follow the same structural rules.

it is true, written and spoken Chinese are different.
But in Hong Kong, magazines are written in Cantonese Chinese (is this more precise?)

 

[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatko /img/forum/go_quote.gif it is true, written and spoken Chinese are different. But in Hong Kong, magazines are written in Cantonese Chinese (is this more precise?)

all magazines? what about official HK documents? legal documents? text books? street signs?

 

[fatko]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif all magazines? what about official HK documents? legal documents? text books? street signs?

Almost all magazines are written in Cantonese Chinese unless they are intended to publish to Taiwan or China (coz they cant understand)
Legal documents are written in English. Text books and street signs are written in "written" Chinese.

it is like a paradox, Dialect in Chinese is 方言 "Local Language"
"When a local language becomes a dialect, it is not a language anymore."
it seems philosophic!!

this thread is educational ! i hope it wont become a war.

 

[jmmtn4aj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatko /img/forum/go_quote.gif it is true, written and spoken Chinese are different. But in Hong Kong, magazines are written in Cantonese Chinese (is this more precise?)

What does that look like?

I've updated my post regarding an experience with that (or lack thereof), coincidentally before I read yours

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f11/wh...ml#post3898351

 

[2deadeyes]

I have to agree with chesebert here. The dialects I know are just means for me to speak with people of particular regions. Once you start writing, it's all the same assuming you adhere to one style (traditinal/simplified).

 

[fatko]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmmtn4aj /img/forum/go_quote.gif What does that look like? I've updated my post regarding an experience with that (or lack thereof), coincidentally before I read yours http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f11/wh...ml#post3898351

i hope you can read Chinese..
Cantonese 佢地食左屎
Standard written Chinese 他們吃了糞便

see no words are the same in these two sentences...

 

[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatko /img/forum/go_quote.gif i hope you can read Chinese.. Cantonese 佢地食左屎 Standard written Chinese 他們吃了糞便 see no words are the same in these two sentences...

糞and 屎 are synonyms, just as 食 and 吃.

one can play the same game with English synonyms

and please use a 'cleaner' example in the future (you are in the strict thread-lock territory); thanks.