[SparkOnShore]

Very kind both. I do accept that Sound Science is not the place to come throwing subjective thoughts around. To be perfectly honest I had forgotten that this thread was in SS!!
Anyway. The headphones are the Noble K10 CIEM's. Annoyingly, Noble don't publish specs. All they say is "less than 35 Ohm".
As to blind test and small differences. I do think my position has some validity. Tiny differences in sound obviously make a difference to the listening experience. How transients and the"edges" of notes are reproduced perhaps. My inability to detect the tiny differences in a blind test do not mean they are not there. It just means part of the test equipment is faulty. My hearing! Over many years of trying to find an enjoyable sound, the Mojo provides it for me. I would love an in line dongle that would correct any mismatch between the K10's and my XS Max. Producing the same effect as the rather bulky Mojo. So if you have suggestions, I'm all ears. Defective as they may be! Thanks again for your indulgence guys. Appreciated. K

What they are trying to say to you is rather logical and I think you can understand it; you say that your ears are unable to detect the differences in a blind test, for one reason or the other. Reason of inability is not important. What is important is that when you are not aware which source you’re listening to, you cannot detect any differences between Mojo and the iPhone. But when you are aware that you listen on Mojo, then suddenly all these differences come to the fore! This is the absolute definition of bias! If you cannot detect the differences in a blind test, then these differences are not real to your particular ears. It means that you cannot hear them! And if you cannot hear them, they are not there for you! It means that even though your ears do not detect any difference, your psychology is in a deep need to like the Mojo more than the perfectly balanced output of the iPhone!! Please do yourself a favor and find a matching pair of good quality earphones or headphones or even some recent Bluetooth headphones which have excellent sound and really enjoy your awesome XS max with its mobility...I repeat once again, when you cannot hear it in a blind test, it’s not there really, you just think it’s there cause our minds are tricking us, but it’s not!! As simple as that...

 

[SparkOnShore]

Of course tiny differences in sound obviously make a difference to the whole listening experience! But if you cannot hear them in a blind test, how can you possibly know they are there??!! You just don’t know! You just believe they are there only when your eyes see the Mojo logo on your player!! Bias, in love with Mojo!! Please forget about this brick and enjoy mobility and high quality of your Max!

 

[SonyFan121]

I must say, i've had an iphone X for nearly a year now and I think the sound quality is nothing short of amazing. So good in fact that I never bought a portable dac/amp for it, I just use a standard usb to 6.3mm adapter to use my headphones with it. Before I got the iphone X I had an iphone 4S and the difference in sound quality between the 2 is silly good. So impressed with the iphone X.

 

[bigshot]

Less than 35 ohm shouldn’t need amping. I use 32 ohm cans with my iPhone. The trick may be the time between samples and volume matching. Times longer than a couple of seconds between samples can mess up a comparison. It’s best to have both alongside each other with a switch to go back and forth. Matching the volume is important too. Even with identical samples, a little louder will be perceived as sounding better. The equipment to do level matched, direct A/B switched blind tests is cheap. It’s a good investment because if you can save money by not buying equipment you don’t need, it will pay for itself many times over.

 

[castleofargh]

the issue here is not a need of power, but the fact that the IEM is a multi BA(10 of them). so the risk of serious impedance swings over frequencies caused by the crossovers is pretty big. and again we cannot disregard how low the impedance of the mojo is compared to another device.
I really wouldn't assume to know that the signature change isn't audible without impedance data for the iphone and the K10. and I think you guys are wrong for making that assumption and conclude that it must all be in his head without any relevant measurements.
I'm the first one to assume that uncontrolled impressions are worth close to nothing for small variations because of how easy it is to be biased, but we're supposed to be the fact based people, not the jump to conclusion people.

with that said, I would be curious to know how many times we could make up most of the audible changes between devices just with some specific EQ?

 

[krismusic]

I must say, i've had an iphone X for nearly a year now and I think the sound quality is nothing short of amazing. So good in fact that I never bought a portable dac/amp for it, I just use a standard usb to 6.3mm adapter to use my headphones with it. Before I got the iphone X I had an iphone 4S and the difference in sound quality between the 2 is silly good. So impressed with the iphone X.

I presume that the 4S would sound the same of you used the headphone adaptor?

 

[SergeSE]

So what exactly does that graph mean, that the average noise floor is -26dB full scale?

No, this is the level of waveform degradation of the initial/input/reference signal. The input signals can be of any kind - sine, white noise, music, voice, etc. Df-slide shows such levels of degradation (or difference levels, Df) with some basic technical signals and real-life audio material (the histogram). A set of resulting Df values is in fact an objective representation of so called sound signature or, to be more correct, artifact signature of a device.

 

[TheSonicTruth]

I presume that the 4S would sound the same of you used the headphone adaptor?

4s has a headphone jack.

 

[krismusic]

I know. Nothing to prevent use of the adaptor with it though.

 

[TheSonicTruth]

I know. Nothing to prevent use of the adaptor with it though.

Oh, I see what you mean.

Of course, I probably would not hear the difference between TRS-out and dongle-out.

 

[krismusic]

Oh, I see what you mean.

Of course, I probably would not hear the difference between TRS-out and dongle-out.

Sorry if I am labouring a point but this is a subject that interests me. It seems to me that Apple have effectively closed off improvement in the sound of iPhones. Unless they are going to upgrade the dongle at some future point. From the release of the dongle on, in principle all iPhones will sound the same. Including previous models if used with the dongle. So to say that the X is silly good is a mistake. It is the dongle that is silly good? Again apologies if I am being obtuse.

 

[TheSonicTruth]

No, this is the level of waveform degradation of the initial/input/reference signal. The input signals can be of any kind - sine, white noise, music, voice, etc. Df-slide shows such levels of degradation (or difference levels, Df) with some basic technical signals and real-life audio material (the histogram). A set of resulting Df values is in fact an objective representation of so called sound signature or, to be more correct, artifact signature of a device.

So the average difference level is 26dB? Sorry - that graph is Chinese takeout to me!

 

[bigshot]

So the average difference level is 26dB? Sorry - that graph is Chinese takeout to me!

It's distortion. When you pump a square wave through it, the distortion is down at -26dB. That's to be expected because no digital audio equipment is designed to reproduce square waves well. Distortion is quantified either as a percentage or as an attenuation below the signal. -26dB distortion would be about 5%, which would be clearly audible... that is if you could know what square waves were supposed to sound like. In a nutshell, all of that distortion charted there is purely theoretical. If you played music, it would sound perfect with no distortion.

Sorry if I am labouring a point but this is a subject that interests me. It seems to me that Apple have effectively closed off improvement in the sound of iPhones. Unless they are going to upgrade the dongle at some future point. From the release of the dongle on, in principle all iPhones will sound the same. Including previous models if used with the dongle. So to say that the X is silly good is a mistake. It is the dongle that is silly good? Again apologies if I am being obtuse.

I've used Apple audio since the Power Mac 8500AV was released back in 1995... various generations of iPhones, iMacs, iPods... they all have "silly good sound" and they all sound exactly the same. The reason they all sound the same is because they are clean and balanced to specs far beyond the human ear's ability to hear. That's called "audible transparency". You can improve the numbers to "insanely silly good" if you want, but your ears won't hear the difference. Apple audio has always been audibly transparent. You really don't need better than that unless you are working in a studio, and even then, Apple sound quality is still pretty good for many professional purposes.

the issue here is not a need of power, but the fact that the IEM is a multi BA(10 of them)

I thought we were talking about headphones, not IEMs. They are a wild card always. The problem is the transducers then, not the iPhone. If they make things that require very specific impedances, they should sell them with a converter or specific amp so you don't have to guess what you can and can't plug them into. I remember back in the day when people looked forward to compatibility between components. Sometimes I wonder if stuff like this isn't designed to specifically mess with the consumers and keep them confused.

In any case, the IEMs probably aren't designed to work with an iPhone. That isn't the iPhone's fault. Use the proper headphones with it and it will sound perfect.

 

[TheSonicTruth]

It's distortion. When you pump a square wave through it, the distortion is down at -26dB. That's to be expected because no digital audio equipment is designed to reproduce square waves well. Distortion is quantified either as a percentage or as an attenuation below the signal. -26dB distortion would be about 5%, which would be clearly audible... that is if you could know what square waves were supposed to sound like. In a nutshell, all of that distortion charted there is purely theoretical. If you played music, it would sound perfect with no distortion.

I guess a good way to know for sure is to generate a silence track and export it as a lossless file. Played back over an iPhone, or a Droid device for that matter, and in theory one should hear nothing over bud or headphones, at any volume setting.

 

[SergeSE]

So the average difference level is 26dB? Sorry - that graph is Chinese takeout to me!

It's normal. These measurements are a bit different and seam unusual. But right you are - the difference level -26.1dB is an average distortion over two hours of music material, played back through A1749 adapter.