[Icenine2]

I own Moon Audio Blue Dragon Silver RCA IC's and Straightwire Maestro II's.  I got the Silver to try them out and they were reasonably priced as cables go.  Many told me they were going to be too bright, strident, etc.  None of the above.  I A/B'd both IC's and could get any of that for differences at all.  I preferred the Blue Dragons' in the end but there was no brightness issues like others say (that I could detect).

 

[Lenni]

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Yes, seriously. I fail to see what the problem is. Perhaps you'd care to try and explain it as well.
 
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okay, I’ll tell you what problem I had with your "approach" to cable topics in general, if I may... in brief.
 
First: my impression was that you believed most (all?) cable manufactures are somewhat selling snake oil, or are a fraud, etc.. - I don’t want to go dig up your comments here or elsewhere - but it’s safe to say you think cables cannot play a part in the overall sound of a system (right?). See, it still remains pretty weird that you make audiophile cables, however you want to look at it. you say you enjoy making cables - but you won’t experiment with different metals.
 
Second: is the same problem I have with the like of Monster, Bose, and everyone else who’s in this business just for the profit. I firmly believe that audio components should only be made by audiophiles for audiophiles; unfortunately it's far from being the case. but your last comment (post #41) has somewhat changed my impression, and I’m quite grateful to you for posting that.
 
Lastly, I don't wish to mess with nobody business, but I think your view of audiophile cables is a shame; with your knowledge you could perhaps make some really good cables. If I had your knowledge and means I would be experimenting night and day with all kind of metals, combinations, approaches etc..  trying to make the best cables I could.
 
anyway, I hope I'm not being too importunate here 

 
 

 

[Steve Eddy]

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Originally Posted by Lenni /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
okay, I’ll tell you what problem I had with your "approach" to cable topics in general, if I may... in brief.

Sure.
 
Quote:

First: my impression was that you believed most (all?) cable manufactures are somewhat selling snake oil, or are a fraud, etc..

 
I believe there's a good amount of that, yes. And not limited just to cables.
 
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- I don’t want to go dig up your comments here or elsewhere - but it’s safe to say you think cables cannot play a part in the overall sound of a system (right?).

 
What I've said repeatedly is that no one to date has demonstrated that cables make an audible difference outside of those instances where the cable's resistance, inductance and/or capacitance are sufficiently high to alter the signal within known thresholds of audibility.
 
That's just a simple statement of fact. What would you prefer I do? Deny it and adopt what would be tantamount to some blind faith religious belief?
 
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See, it still remains pretty weird that you make audiophile cables, however you want to look at it. you say you enjoy making cables - but you won’t experiment with different metals.

 
I've been involved in high end audio for nearly 30 years. And over the course of that nearly 30 years I've experimented with most anything you could possibly make cables with. In fact, the previous version of my cables (the Taos) used a copper/nickel alloy wire. So I don't know where this statement of yours is coming from.
 
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Lastly, I don't wish to mess with nobody business, but I think your view of audiophile cables is a shame; with your knowledge you could perhaps make some really good cables

 
I believe I already do.
 
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If I had your knowledge and means I would be experimenting night and day with all kind of metals, combinations, approaches etc..  trying to make the best cables I could.

 
See the last two above.
 
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anyway, I hope I'm not being too importunate here 

 
Not at all. But I do wonder where some of your notions are coming from.
 
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[Prog Rock Man]

This thread should be renamed to what is the subjective and objective difference between a cable?
 
What we do know is that subjective differences do not match objective ones. Though people tend to report silver cables as brighter than copper ones, that is not always the case.
 
I think that subjective differences are far too often presented as objective as in 'I heard it, therefore it is the case'.
 
Where Steve stands out from the crowd is that he recognises that objectively he can make a cable which may or may not have certain sound quality properties, but in the end it is the subjective impression of those qualities that really makes the difference to sound quality.

 

[Steve Eddy]

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Where Steve stands out from the crowd is that he recognises that objectively he can make a cable which may or may not have certain sound quality properties, but in the end it is the subjective impression of those qualities that really makes the difference to sound quality.

Or rather, in the end, it is only the subjective impression that has any real meaning to us. If the ultimate goal is the pleasure and enjoyment we get from listening to reproduced music, what other meaningful metric is there but our own individual subjective impressions?
 
Or as Robert Pirsig put it, "The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed."
 
If I stand out it's simply that I'm perfectly content with my own subjective impressions whatever may be behind them (i.e. placebo and other biases) and never attempt to pass my subjective impressions off as anything more than that.
 
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[WNBC]

You are right, people over-generalize in these forums.  His or her experience is applied to all scenarios.  Most of us take it with a grain of salt and recognize that we may have different rigs.  I also have read the brightness opinions about silver cables but I still may try them one day just to formulate my own opinion and with my rig they might just be great.
 
I came into this hobby a year ago.  I'm a biologist and work with friends who are engineers in the field of material sciences.  We all have advanced degrees, blah, blah, blah.  They all said cables don't make a difference however they never A/B'd any audio cables.  I brought that bias into this hobby but I figured I would try one anyway for schiits and giggles.  At something like $100-150 for a headphone or IC cable, it's a gamble, but I was fine with it even if it turned out to be money spent on a better looking cable rather than sonically better cable.  Was I going to gamble on say $500-1000 cables?  Nope.  Well, I gotta say, what I perceive from my cables are subtle yet welcomed improvements over stock cables.  It just makes the experience a tad more enjoyable aesthetically, comfort-wise, and sonically, for me.  Though $100 is nothing to sneeze at I don't have to convince myself that the money spent was justified by fooling myself into thinking it was something it really wasn't.  We have people that say tubes costing more than $50 cannot make a significant audible difference as well.  Wrong and naturally these same people don't A/B different tubes.  In the end, one has to be open to try new things, go into it as a skeptic and if turns out ok then great, if not then you never have to buy another aftermarket item.  If you don't want to part with your cash at the start then that's great too, cables are tweaks and ideally are purchased after the main components are in place. 
 
In the end, I rely on suggestions from people I trust.  Try things out, be critical and honest.  I don't have any of Steve's cables but he's well-established and realizes there are a lot of other things that go into one's opinions about cables that has more to do with user's personality, headphones, amps, DACs, etc.      
 
 
Quote:

This thread should be renamed to what is the subjective and objective difference between a cable?
What we do know is that subjective differences do not match objective ones. Though people tend to report silver cables as brighter than copper ones, that is not always the case.
I think that subjective differences are far too often presented as objective as in 'I heard it, therefore it is the case'.
Where Steve stands out from the crowd is that he recognises that objectively he can make a cable which may or may not have certain sound quality properties, but in the end it is the subjective impression of those qualities that really makes the difference to sound quality.

 

 

[Lenni]

 
yeah, subjective impressions that most of time match other similar impressions on the particular item. So, all the people who experience silver to be brighter, for example, are in some kind of mass telepathic self-induced belief (or whatever the term is). Complete nonsense!
 
It happened to me more than once. I bought some I/C’s without checking the reviews – it was an auction; I didn’t have the time nor the patience to fully check impressions; I just bought them and forgot about. once I tried them out, and observed some changes I went online to check for reviews of users who had these i/c’s, and their impressions matched exactly with mine. coincidence? ..sure
 
I neither sell nor make cables, but what I find most bothersome is people who have not tried audiophile cable (and I mean cable in the $500+ range), and talk about them like they know everything about, and tell me that my impressions are subjective when their comments are the ones at being subjective the most. isn't it funny?
 
To be honest I’m still not sure why Steve Eddy makes audio cables, and post what it does... may he’s just trying to kill off the competition… lol. Personally, I think he'd be better off making designer furniture or something – not audio cables... sorry
 
Anyway, I’m not getting into another endless debate. I’m fed up with it. all I’m gonna say is that the Nordost speaker cables have transformed the sound beyond my expectation. is not all good, but it's more good than bad. In fact I’m saving for the Hiemdall range.
 
I’m out. 

 

 

[Head Injury]

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yeah, subjective impressions that most of time match other similar impressions on the particular item. So, all the people who experience silver to be brighter, for example, are in some kind of mass telepathic self-induced belief (or whatever the term is). Complete nonsense!

That's not nonsense, that's social psychology.
 
My social psychology teacher had everyone in the class close their eyes for a minute and imagine a beach. Half an hour later she asked us out of the blue to write down the first laundry detergent brand we could think up. 90% of the class said Tide. Granted that Tide is probably the most popular brand.
 
The very thought of silver, with its shiny white and grey color, primes you for brightness. Just like copper, with its redder earthy tone, primes you for treble roll-off.

 

[Steve Eddy]

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Originally Posted by Lenni /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
I neither sell nor make cables, but what I find most bothersome is people who have not tried audiophile cable (and I mean cable in the $500+ range)...

What has the price tag to do with anything?
 
There are no end of cables out there whose price bears no particular relationship to their cost to produce. This is what happens when items are priced based on what the market will bear. So there are plenty of cables out there selling for four figures which could be profitably sold for several hundred dollars. Simply putting a higher price on something can that dramatically affect something's perceived quality.
 
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To be honest I’m still not sure why Steve Eddy makes audio cables, and post what it does..

 
Because your rigid religious dogma confines your thinking to a rather small box.
 
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[Steve Eddy]

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The very thought of silver, with its shiny white and grey color, primes you for brightness. Just like copper, with its redder earthy tone, primes you for treble roll-off.

And then there's vacuum tubes with their "warm" sound.
 
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[liamstrain]

At the very least they *do* warm hands. 

 

[Steve Eddy]

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At the very least they *do* warm hands. 

And hearts.

 
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