[gimmeheadroom]

You can't do file based digital audio without one.
Feel free to fork out $3500 for a computer like https://www.whathifi.com/news/bryston-launches-bdp-3-digital-music-player

I have a TASCAM digital recorder that has 2 memory card slots and a USB drive slot.

It's not a computer but it's a computer. Around and around it goes, where it stops, nobody knows

 

[Andrew_WOT]

If it were only that simple. No commercially available motherboard is suitable for audio application where reduced noise is of paramount importance.

What noise we are talking about here, onboard audio or USB transport? While anything analog within PC might be subject to interference from other components, USB transport as a digital protocol paired with Asynchronous DAC with high quality clock and galvanic isolation is pretty much immune to all this.
Old school synchronous and adaptive synchronization with PC acting as master clock were indeed pretty finicky to make work properly, while new Async DACs that control transfer with own clock are virtually jitter free.
https://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/KB/USB.html#TransferMode

Some people also confuse simple ground loop they have in their system as "computer noise", again proper grounding combined with galvanic isolation of USB receiver takes complete care of that.

 

[chesebert]

What noise we are talking about here, onboard audio or USB transport? While anything analog within PC might be subject to interference from other components, USB transport as a digital protocol paired with Asynchronous DAC with high quality clock and galvanic isolation is pretty much immune to all this.
Old school synchronous and adaptive synchronization with PC acting as master clock were indeed pretty finicky to make work properly, while new Async DACs that control transfer with own clock are virtually jitter free.
https://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/KB/USB.html#TransferMode

Some people also confuse simple ground loop they have in their system as "computer noise", again proper grounding combined with galvanic isolation of USB receiver takes complete care of that.

We will have to disagree on that. You appear to be working one level abstraction above device level physics.

 

[dougms3]

What noise we are talking about here, onboard audio or USB transport? While anything analog within PC might be subject to interference from other components, USB transport as a digital protocol paired with Asynchronous DAC with high quality clock and galvanic isolation is pretty much immune to all this.
Old school synchronous and adaptive synchronization with PC acting as master clock were indeed pretty finicky to make work properly, while new Async DACs that control transfer with own clock are virtually jitter free.
https://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/KB/USB.html#TransferMode

Some people also confuse simple ground loop they have in their system as "computer noise", again proper grounding combined with galvanic isolation of USB receiver takes complete care of that.

Its not immune, you can't completely eliminate noise in the system even with galvanic isolation.

Noise also comes from the flow of power, anything that carries power has an EMF. EM fields can wirelessly inject noise into the system, they also move with the flow of power. Even within a shielded cable, the field is not completely encased in the wire, it only minimizes the trajectory of the field.

Theres alot of variables and I don't fully understand it yet but I do know theres alot of variation with thickness of the shield, wavelength of the frequency, etc.

Also some frequencies like radio, cell, wifi, bluetooth signals, etc can inject noise into the system as well and those are unavoidable. Its also ironic that the metals that are excellent for shielding are also excellent antennaes for these signals.

On top of that the dacs and amps themselves produce noise and inject it into the audio signal after galvanic isolation.

 

[Andrew_WOT]

Most of these concerns affect any electronic device in existence including all streamers as they all share wi-fi network, power grid where they can pick up ground loop, have noisy components on board, EMI generating power supply, etc. How much different do you really think PC is from these, they are cut from the same components (all made in Taiwan )
Theoretical pseudo technical debate aside, practical question to @chesebert and @dougms3, what USB DACs did you own, what issues have you experienced and what streamers if any did you have them replaced with. I had my share of gripes with USB audio but all that is pretty much thing of the past after async USB receivers took over adaptive in 2010.

 

[chesebert]

In terms of USB dacs, I have/had Ayre, Cary, PS Audio, Emm Labs, Benchmark, Chord, Audioquest, iFi, Shanlin, and probably others I don’t remember anymore.

In terms of decrapify USB, full suite of ifi USB products, special USB cables, multiple power conditioners, isolation transformer, dedicated 10 core PC, M1 mac.

I still use USB for YouTube, movie watching, general convenience and gaming but that’s about it.

Main 2 channel and headphone systems use 2 different Linn DS and office system uses Emm Labs network bridge. The 10 core PC is now DLNA server.

 

[dougms3]

Most of these concerns affect any electronic device in existence including all streamers as they all share wi-fi network, power grid where they can pick up ground loop, have noisy components on board, EMI generating power supply, etc. How much different do you really think PC is from these, they are cut from the same components (all made in Taiwan )
Theoretical pseudo technical debate aside, practical question to @chesebert and @dougms3, what USB DACs did you own, what issues have you experienced and what streamers if any did you have them replaced with. I had my share of gripes with USB audio but all that is pretty much thing of the past after async USB receivers took over adaptive in 2010.

I used the denafrips ares ii, i dont use streaming simply because i like to manage a file library. I dont use streaming services often so i dont know what the difference vs a network streamer. Im sure there are benefits over bypassing the pc entirely which is a noise factory but i havent experienced this for myself so i cant comment.

Usb is noisy yes and galvanic isolation helps immensely to reduce the noise but that doesnt mean the system is noise free or immune. That's all I'm pointing out.

 

[Andrew_WOT]

In terms of USB dacs, I have/had Ayre, Cary, PS Audio, Emm Labs, Benchmark, Chord, Audioquest, iFi, Shanlin, and probably others I don’t remember anymore.

In terms of decrapify USB, full suite of ifi USB products, special USB cables, multiple power conditioners, isolation transformer, dedicated 10 core PC, M1 mac.

I still use USB for YouTube, movie watching, general convenience and gaming but that’s about it.

Main 2 channel and headphone systems use 2 different Linn DS and office system uses Emm Labs network bridge. The 10 core PC is now DLNA server.

Can you please list specific models you owned, both USB and streamers, if you still have this info around. Also issues you had with USB.

Thanks

 

[chesebert]

Can you please list specific models you owned both USB and streamers if you still have this info around. Also issues you had with USB.

Thanks

All problems with computer USB have been solved - don’t use USB anymore. Most of the models in my profile.

 

[Andrew_WOT]

Usb is noisy yes and galvanic isolation helps immensely to reduce the noise but that doesnt mean the system is noise free or immune. That's all I'm pointing out.

We keep saying "noise", but what kind of noise. Is it electrical due to the shared ground (ground loop), or the buffer under/overrun induced jitter that you can hear. Which again with proper async synchronization control and in DAC master clock should be virtually non existent.

 

[dougms3]

We keep saying "noise", but what kind of noise. Is it electrical due to the shared ground (ground loop), or the buffer under/overrun induced jitter that you can hear. Which again with proper async synchronization control and in DAC master clock should be virtually non existent.

Noise generated by the motherboard, power supply, video card, leds, all the components in the PC along with the dirty power thats shared with appliances in the house coming in from the wall. You have to take into consideration that power going into those appliances return back to the source. Ground loops are ground loops and jitter is jitter, I wouldn't categorize those in the same boat as noise. EMI is noise.

 

[Andrew_WOT]

Noise generated by the motherboard, power supply, video card, leds, all the components in the PC along with the dirty power thats shared with appliances in the house coming in from the wall. You have to take into consideration that power going into those appliances return back to the source. Ground loops are ground loops and jitter is jitter, I wouldn't categorize those in the same boat as noise. EMI is noise.

So how that affects digital signal that is supposed to be bit to bit perfect and why PC is different from other electronics including streamers using the same or even subpar components and power supplies and sharing "dirty" power in your house.
I understand people having bad experience with PC audio getting frustrated and making blanket statement that anything out of PC is bad. Having had both bad and excellent experience with PC audio playback, I just cannot share the same sentiment. With the right DAC and the right PC you can get the same if not better audio quality as from the best streamers.
For folks mostly using streaming audio services and dedicated audio rooms/setups with speakers and power amps, streamers are more convenient solution not requiring separate PC box for file library management. For desktop setups, office use, mostly common scenarios of typical head-fier, PC is still an excellent and convenient option.

 

[Whazzzup]

Antipodes audio has a long history on developing noiseless , tuned mother boards, discreet dual power supply ,servers streamers etc etc, it’s really above my pay grade but they are still evolving through oladra upgrades and now a new oladra flagship. There’s science development going On big time…. Google your friend.

 

[manueljenkin]

I don’t think any of the PC audio deniers here have tried any customisation on how their OS handles the components and audio path. With a low profile distro like wtfplay (basically almost shuts down all components other than ones necessary to just keep the system running and feed usb out, and some of tweaking at task priorities), it sounds very nice. Best part, it’s completely free. For windows, experimenting with RAM disk gives great results (installing the music player in the RAM disk and storing the music in the RAM disk saves noticeable hard drive access routines during playback. It still will need to do a little bit of hard drive fetching for certain OS functions but it’s minimal). RAM playback based softwares like PlayPCMwin also sound great.

Haven’t had first hand experiences on streamers but I have seen people who have tried streamers, prefer a tweaked PC (the software tweaks). Some software tweaks are paid and they do have additional benefits, but again the price is a fraction of getting a streamer.

 

[chesebert]

I will say that special audio-focused linux distribution is step 1 in getting the computer audio correct. However, you will also need to design and implement linear power supplies for supplying different parts of the computer, shield away multiple sections of the motherboard (i.e., different sections of the mobo will need to be on different PCBs), build special BIOS as timing will be all messed up and many I/Os and other functionalities are no longer needed, have speciality built motherboards that separates processing from I/O and build on special PCB that's constructed and laid out and built to reduce noise. Once you have done that you also need to create a UX so you can access your linux PC over a network (you will need to run the linux PC headless to avoid gfx card). Of course you will need to build a new case for all these things. By the time you are done with this, your BOM will be at $5k if you can even get it done at all without volume ordering.

Trust me, it's cheaper and less hassle to just buy a streamer and listen to music.

Forgot to add: I tried RAM disk..doesn't do crap for me.