[jagwap]

A good impulse response is indicative of many things, but what makes it good? Ideally we want the different frequencies to arrive at the same time. An impulse is in theory all frequencies at once, but in reality on transducers which are band limited, do you know what it should look like?

PRaT is better sreved by a flat group delay. Group delay is mathematically linked to phase response and frequency response. But a flat-ish response does not guarantee an even group delay. Messy EQ and filtering can twist it all over the place. Turn the bass up, and not only will it add oomph, which sounds fun for a few minutes, it also arrives at the wrong time compared to the mids, making it lose tightness and definition. Most of all it scrambles the musical rhythm, making the musicians sound indifferent in ability. A tight dry and initially unimpressive bass is often the one which will long term be most musically revealing and therefore pleasing.

So keep it neutral. V shaped is for attracting sales in airports on 30 second auditions

 

[alphaman]

Well, holy effin' PRaT, did I forget about these SR-80s with the electrical tape mod ... yeah, these are SR-80s from 1994. Still wow. (Elec. tape modded since 2012)

 

[F208Frank]

… based on all the broken toes - just the ‘digital’ gear !!

Wow I just got this. I did not get it at first. Lol.

 

[theveterans]

I think there has to be fun factor too. That's why people use phrases like toe tapping. You can have a very fast sounding headphone that is dry as hell and boring to listen to and I agree that it wouldn't be the greatest definition of PRAT as most of us see it.

So it's more like that snappy characteristic in a fun and involving kind of experience.

Component synergy is the key to this. Just look at the DCA Expanse or Stealth thread or even lots of impressions on YT and Reddit. It's so polarizing since it can sound without any PRaT (dynamically muted and blunted and slow) on a crappy chain and it can sound as good as Susvara on the right chain (tons of toe breaking/tapping PRaT)

 

[trollchu]

I know what it stands for if I hear it, but PRaT is a term I don't use because I've always been of the opinion that those things are predefined before music can be reproduced. I clicked this thread hoping to learn something, but it looks like a lot of the arguments being made for what PRaT is (or where it can be found) are echoing a bit of the arguments from the start of the thread and I don't really see much that is definite. Honestly, after reading all of this, the only question in my mind is whether or not anyone can give me a definite example of poor PRaT.

 

[alphaman]

I know what it stands for if I hear it, but PRaT is a term I don't use because I've always been of the opinion that those things are predefined before music can be reproduced. I clicked this thread hoping to learn something, but it looks like a lot of the arguments being made for what PRaT is (or where it can be found) are echoing a bit of the arguments from the start of the thread and I don't really see much that is definite. Honestly, after reading all of this, the only question in my mind is whether or not anyone can give me a definite example of poor PRaT.

Like I said, you won't get it until you get it. Who knows if/when that'll be for anyone?

Most H-F reviews concentrate on tones (bass, mid, treble) and maybe a few other easy subjectives.
For me, PRaT is as apparent and fundamental as tones. With the 7h Timeless AE, I noted PRaT absence immediately**. And my comments on that upset many folks in the 7hz thread. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's possible that highly-PRaT-capable headphones -- HD25, Amperior, Momentum (wired) -- are either discontinued or rare, now, that PRaT is not as much part of the conversation as it was years ago. No wonder those cans still (new or used) fetch high $$ on eBay.

** As a DIYer, I even select op-amps based on how they PRaT.
BTW:
PRaT = Pace, Rhythm and Timing
PRaT = Pace, Rhythm and Timing
PRaT = Pace, Rhythm and Timing
PRaT = Pace, Rhythm and Timing
PRaT = Pace, Rhythm and Timing
PRaT = Pace, Rhythm and Timing
PRaT = Pace, Rhythm and Timing

 

[xeizo]

For me it's an old sales pitch by Ivor Tiefenbraun of Linn Audio

 

[alphaman]

For me it's an old sales pitch by Ivor Tiefenbraun of Linn Audio

Sour grapes, toots ... sour effin' grapes!!!

 

[trollchu]

For me it's an old sales pitch by Ivor Tiefenbraun of Linn Audio

How long ago was that?

Sour grapes, toots ... sour effin' grapes!!!

You're hungry, eat a Snicker.

Like I said, you won't get it until you get it. Who knows if/when that'll be for anyone?

Most H-F reviews concentrate on tones (bass, mid, treble) and maybe a few other easy subjectives.
For me, PRaT is as apparent and fundamental as tones. With the 7h Timeless AE, I noted PRaT absence immediately**. And my comments on that upset many folks in the 7hz thread. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's possible that highly-PRaT-capable headphones -- HD25, Amperior, Momentum (wired) -- are either discontinued or rare, now, that PRaT is not as much part of the conversation as it was years ago. No wonder those cans still (new or used) fetch high $$ on eBay.

** As a DIYer, I even select op-amps based on how they PRaT.
BTW:
PRaT = Pace, Rhythm and Timing
PRaT = Pace, Rhythm and Timing
PRaT = Pace, Rhythm and Timing
PRaT = Pace, Rhythm and Timing
PRaT = Pace, Rhythm and Timing
PRaT = Pace, Rhythm and Timing
PRaT = Pace, Rhythm and Timing

I see you've brought up a 7 Hertz product, are you able to explain what it lacked, and would you be able to reproduce it? If you could reproduce it, would you be certain your first impression of it would be identical to your impression today? Those other headphones, who defined them as having PRaT?

 

[alphaman]

I see you've brought up a 7 Hertz product, are you able to explain what it lacked, and would you be able to reproduce it? If you could reproduce it, would you be certain your first impression of it would be identical to your impression today? Those other headphones, who defined them as having PRaT?

Umm...

 

[Jmop]

It’s an underrated aspect of technicalities imo, and I often notice PRaT in the amp part of the chain (from memory). An argument can be had that single-ended actually does PRaT better than balanced output in terms of accuracy.

 

[theveterans]

It’s an underrated aspect of technicalities imo, and I often notice PRaT in the amp part of the chain (from memory). An argument can be had that single-ended actually does PRaT better than balanced output in terms of accuracy.

How do define PRaT in your own terms? Speed of transients?

I define it as simply fleshed out undertones of a fundamental timbre of an instrument. HD650 and HD600 don't have the speed but have lots of PRaT (undertones that are buried with inferior components) in my definition

 

[Jmop]

How do define PRaT in your own terms? Speed of transients?

I define it as simply fleshed out undertones of a fundamental timbre of an instrument. HD650 and HD600 don't have the speed but have lots of PRaT (undertones that are buried with inferior components) in my definition

I wouldn’t have thought to use the word transient but I suppose so. I would’ve said something along the lines of ‘consistent attack and decay speed but with acceptable resolution’ so all instrumental information is accounted for. I think that goes relatively well with your assessment of the Senns, and I agree, they do PRaT well. Despite what I just said about balanced/unbalanced, I think those boys definitely need balanced to open up the stage, my preference being the 650. That bit of frequency extension at the extremes makes all the difference if you ask me.

 

[jagwap]

I

It’s an underrated aspect of technicalities imo, and I often notice PRaT in the amp part of the chain (from memory). An argument can be had that single-ended actually does PRaT better than balanced output in terms of accuracy.

I'm interested in your arguement about single ended verses balanced. It has pros and cons. But I haven't notice PRaT aspects in my travels.

 

[Jmop]

I

I'm interested in your arguement about single ended verses balanced. It has pros and cons. But I haven't notice PRaT aspects in my travels.

I think the benefit of balanced is to aid in separation as most obvious, and potentially offering a wider soundstage second. I also notice quicker attack and decay, which can help some phones that have sibilance issues and loose bass. However, the emphasis on separation can at times pull instruments apart (to my ear) in a way that isolates their rhythm in relation to other instruments, taking slightly away from the coherency of the piece. I could probably come up with a better explanation later on but that’s what I got right now lol. In general, balanced seems to take on more of a dry characteristic too. There is a more natural sheen to cymbals that is better heard on a good single-ended output I think. Thing is, a lot of phones could use better separation, control, and soundstage, so there’s plenty of benefit to going balanced. If I had a set phones that already did control, separation, and soundstage well, I’d probably go single-ended for it’s overall lusher quality and coherency.