Planars are the easiest way to get PRaT (fast transients and low distortion). However, that's only half of the equation. You would need to have that microdynamic granulation in the timbre of instruments that we perceive as "you are there" sensation. This is where planars need the help of upstream components to provide the latter or else they sound "boring" and "lifeless"
I don't know what you mean.
If my feet ain't tapin', and I ain't feelin' like dancin' or exercisin', PRaT is compromised. That's been my experience with every PM and even Stax stats' that I own or have owned.
One quick and easy sol'n is: Sennheiser. They mostly nail it in PRaT.
If my feet ain't tapin', and I ain't feelin' like dancin' or exercisin', PRaT is compromised. That's been my experience with every PM and even Stax stats' that I own or have owned.
One quick and easy sol'n is: Sennheiser. They mostly nail it in PRaT.
First is okay. Sennheisers has nothing to do with PRat. It's really compromised with any Sennheisers. They are soooo dull. Please do not use word PRat with them.
Grado=PRat. Listen and you'll know.
First is okay. Sennheisers has nothing to do with PRat. It's really compromised with any Sennheisers. They are soooo dull. Please do not use word PRat with them.
Grado=PRat. Listen and you'll know.
I don't think we're speaking the same language. Something is lost in the translation. So what is "PRaT"? Well you won't get it ... till you get it.
That's okay ... music is "language" and "dialog" all in it's own.
It's very much different than what we are TRYING to encapsulate using keystroked English sentences and forum posts.
I don't think we're speaking the same language. Something is lost in the translation. So what is "PRaT"? Well you won't get it ... till you get it.
That's okay ... music is "language" and "dialog" all in it's own.
It's very much different than what we are TRYING to encapsulate using keystroked English sentences and forum posts.
Pace, Rhythm and Timing. It has barely nothing to do with "neutral" sound. PRaT? I got it at the same time when i first time listened Grados.
"Okay, THIS is it!"
Pace, Rhythm and Timing. It has barely nothing to do with "neutral" sound. PRaT? I got it at the same time when i first time listened Grados.
"Okay, THIS is it!"
PRaT, as it is generally defined, indeed has "nothing to do with "neutral" sound. "
"Neutral" and "PRaT" aren't even as close as "apples and oranges". It's unclear why you even bought the brought the term "neutral" into this discussion?
Most contemporary reviewers and influencers --- many who review here on H-F -- have fallen into the cookie-cutter trap of defining sound by typical "tone controls" (bass, mid, treble). And a few other subjective jargons -- macrodynamics, etc [whatever sounds/reads fancy and sophisticated].
Get off H-F and look at older Internet content if you are interested in some inkling as to what PRaT may be: https://www.tnt-audio.com/edcorner/prat_e.html https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/thre...en-they-talk-about-pace-rhythm-timing.701989/ https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/thr...erms-mean-to-you-with-respect-to-hifi.257538/
First is okay. Sennheisers has nothing to do with PRat. It's really compromised with any Sennheisers. They are soooo dull. Please do not use word PRat with them.
Grado=PRat. Listen and you'll know.
Funny because when I think of a PRaT headphone, I immediately think of a Sennheiser headphone model, which is the HD25. Another Sennheiser that could handle the PRaT designation is the Momentum 4. Hope it helps.
PRaT, as it is generally defined, indeed has "nothing to do with "neutral" sound. "
"Neutral" and "PRaT" aren't even as close as "apples and oranges". It's unclear why you even bought the brought the term "neutral" into this discussion?
Most contemporary reviewers and influencers --- many who review here on H-F -- have fallen into the cookie-cutter trap of defining sound by typical "tone controls" (bass, mid, treble). And a few other subjective jargons -- macrodynamics, etc [whatever sounds/reads fancy and sophisticated].
Get off H-F and look at older Internet content if you are interested in some inkling as to what PRaT may be: https://www.tnt-audio.com/edcorner/prat_e.html https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/thre...en-they-talk-about-pace-rhythm-timing.701989/ https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/thr...erms-mean-to-you-with-respect-to-hifi.257538/
Funny because when I think of a PRaT headphone, I immediately think of a Sennheiser headphone model, which is the HD25. Another Sennheiser that could handle the PRaT designation is the Momentum 4. Hope it helps.
Probably the no-longer-made Sennheiser Amperior is the best of the bunch from that group. Never personally owned it.
But the Amperior is over 11 years ago. I think 1More triple and Philips Fidelio CR2 and Akg k-371 will give a all the PRaT you want.
I've got a Thieaudio Ghost in the mail, on its way from China. It's based on a new a 40mm dynamic driver. Stay tuned ... hmmm ... maybe I'll only post reviews and imortant headphone comments in this thread from now on
I have never found PRaT and neutral exclusive of each other. Quite the opposite. If the system has a pronounced tonal deviation, particularly in the bass it can affect Pace and Timing perception. Note I say perception. It doesn't speed up or slow the track down. It changes the relative arrival time of different frequencies throught the phase shift incured. A bass boost (in most commercial headphones since Beats) can perceptually speed up the Pace unnaturally. This may be fun at first, but it is not as musical. This becomes more evident with blues, jazz and progressive, when the pace and anticipation is an important part of the experience.
I recall an experienced sound engineer explaining that a producer they worked with used low frequency EQ to adjust the perceived pace of a track, so others know of this too.
On Sennheiser, the HD800 are the best PRaT I have heard so far. They are not perfect in every way, but in this they even beat high end planars (that I have heard so far)
I have never found PRaT and neutral exclusive of each other. Quite the opposite. If the system has a pronounced tonal deviation, particularly in the bass it can affect Pace and Timing perception. Note I say perception. It doesn't speed up or slow the track down. It changes the relative arrival time of different frequencies throught the phase shift incured. A bass boost (in most commercial headphones since Beats) can perceptually speed up the Pace unnaturally. This may be fun at first, but it is not as musical. This becomes more evident with blues, jazz and progressive, when the pace and anticipation is an important part of the experience.
I recall an experienced sound engineer explaining that a producer they worked with used low frequency EQ to adjust the perceived pace of a track, so others know of this too.
On Sennheiser, the HD800 are the best PRaT I have heard so far. They are not perfect in every way, but in this they even beat high end planars (that I have heard so far)
IME "neutral" has only referred to freq balance. Such as a "flat" response or a response that adheres to the Harman target curve. Head/ear-phones such as Ety ER4SR and Akg k371 are both neutral -- I own both -- but only the k371 has PRaT.
As far as bass and PRaT ... they largely unrelated IME, tho' having both good bass and PRaT can improve the latter. My Shure SE530, Earsonic SM3v2 and the Akg k371 all are bass shy but have good PRaT.
I have never found PRaT and neutral exclusive of each other. Quite the opposite. If the system has a pronounced tonal deviation, particularly in the bass it can affect Pace and Timing perception. Note I say perception. It doesn't speed up or slow the track down. It changes the relative arrival time of different frequencies throught the phase shift incured. A bass boost (in most commercial headphones since Beats) can perceptually speed up the Pace unnaturally. This may be fun at first, but it is not as musical. This becomes more evident with blues, jazz and progressive, when the pace and anticipation is an important part of the experience.
I recall an experienced sound engineer explaining that a producer they worked with used low frequency EQ to adjust the perceived pace of a track, so others know of this too.
On Sennheiser, the HD800 are the best PRaT I have heard so far. They are not perfect in every way, but in this they even beat high end planars (that I have heard so far)
A better example of a neutral and PRaT headphone are the Focal Clear MG. Try them and you will see. Closed back PRaT also include B&W PX8 and Senn HD25, although not as neutral. Focal Bathys is a better trade off between neutral and PRaT. HD800 has definitely not PRaT qualities. It’s open, wide, neutral but does not have PRaT qualities in my opinion.
A high PRaT headphone is one that makes your feet tap while listening to the music or alternately makes you feel like dancing to the beat. HD800 is not one of these. HD25 is the king of PRaT, but still having a relatively neutral mid frequency response. It’s not neutral at all and bass is highly elevated in the 60-125hz zone.
I agree for Grados. Never heard M&D. Some open backed Grados sound similar to the closed back Sennheiser HD25. HD25 is often nicknamed the « Senn Grados ».
A better example of a neutral and PRaT headphone are the Focal Clear MG. Try them and you will see. Closed back PRaT also include B&W PX8 and Senn HD25, although not as neutral. Focal Bathys is a better trade off between neutral and PRaT. HD800 has definitely not PRaT qualities. It’s open, wide, neutral but does not have PRaT qualities in my opinion.
A high PRaT headphone is one that makes your feet tap while listening to the music or alternately makes you feel like dancing to the beat. HD800 is not one of these. HD25 is the king of PRaT, but still having a relatively neutral mid frequency response. It’s not neutral at all and bass is highly elevated in the 60-125hz zone.
Well there are always subjective opinions. I tried the PX8, and the massively exaggerated bass was the opposite of what I find musical. It mangled the PRaT for me. But then if you are familiar with exaggerated bass, you will find it familiar in the way it presents music.
I have spent years in the industry designing equipement that chases the highest PRaT ability, and for me it needs to also purvey the subtlety of the rhythmic aspects, not just toe-tapping.
But just disagreeing on the internet will convince no one.
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