[Trapper32]

^^ I agree completely fuzzydice...

 

[breakfastchef]

Quote:

Originally Posted by grawk /img/forum/go_quote.gif IJWTS that I'm not elderly

OOh, you beat me to it. \

Fuzydice, elderly was probably not the best term you could have used, but good post anyway.

 

[QQQ]

fuzydice, but you can't deny economics. You can't built an amp for $500 in Europe, that you can built for $500 in Asia.

 

[Cool_Torpedo]

I find Fuzydice's post quite interesting, but it doesn't take into account one important point: what would make an "elderly member" purchasing a USD 300, 500 or even 1000 amp, provided he already owns or knows well many of the top end offers? I don't think many of the seasoned members with the experience and knowledge to be more objective than a newbie, are going to spend any money to buy those new "giant killers" coming from the East. Probably not even many of the affordable new products from western manufacturers.

 

[tyrion]

As one of those "elderly members" I owned a LD II, I believe it was. A complete POS. Having said that, I understand the quality has improved. I am not going to go out and buy one just so I can post here. However, we have a bunch of ''elderly members" that are going to be at meets in SF, LA and Tampa in the next couple of months. If you have an LD amp and are in any of the above areas bring them. I would love to check them out. None of this is about LD amps. I hope they are that good so there are amps for the less elderly among us.

 

[fuzydice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cool_Torpedo /img/forum/go_quote.gif I find Fuzydice's post quite interesting, but it doesn't take into account one important point: what would make an "elderly member" purchasing a USD 300, 500 or even 1000 amp, provided he already owns or knows well many of the top end offers? I don't think many of the seasoned members with the experience and knowledge to be more objective than a newbie, are going to spend any money to buy those new "giant killers" coming from the East. Probably not even many of the affordable new products from western manufacturers.

Why would they purchase a cheaper amp when they know many of the top end offers? To keep the community they're passionate about and deeply involved in from turning into this, that's why.

You recognized in an earlier post that "this" happens to a lot of good forums; well, at some point, you have to step up to the plate to perpetuate the good portions of the forum, and at the same time you might just find a diamond in the rough. It's a hobby, not an "efficient as possible" corporate endeavor for a lot of the more experienced members, as can be seen by their trial & error journey through the world of headphones, amps, and all that. And the amps in question (LD) are cheap, and probably at every meet. You could spare a few hours to have a listen at a meet, I'm sure?

(just realized I'm echoing tyrion's post about meets; cheers. And yes, when I get some time I'm willing to bring my setup to a meet in the south SF Bay, LD MKIII and all).

 

[olblueyez]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuzydice /img/forum/go_quote.gif The elderly members of this forum have good intentions in fighting this fight against a possible shill, no doubt about it. No one likes to see a community they're intimately involved with deteriorate. However, the cause they're fighting for here--to help people make informed decisions apart from sensationalized & falsely based opinions--isn't being helped by threads like this, at least not in the case of LD/Penchum. Penchum's reviews and posts come across as professional, non-condescending and extremely helpful to new members of the forum and hobby alike, while the posts by the elder members in this thread come across as elitist and antagonistic. The elderly members are not generally the ones buying LD products; it's the newer members, and right now the chasm between the new users and the elderly is actively being widened by the behavior in this thread; If you want to keep this forum united under the banners you guys are rallying behind, then this may not be the most helpful means of achieving it. So how do you achieve unification & the propagation of useful opinions that will aid in the purchase of new amps without calling people out for being shills? Well, what I want to see more of is active involvement from these same elderly members in the assessment of these "cheap chinese products" other than blanket statements alluding to "it's chinese, it's crap." Comments to that effect are not helpful to new buyers; we need someone experienced to sit down with the product and point out its flaws, indicate exactly why a $250 LD MKIII is not on the same level as a DV, RSA, Woo, etc, product, and such and so forth. There is a small amount of this going on, but it can't compete with the amount of baseless praise. And baseless praise only begets more baseless praise, thus threads like this asking where it all began. The experience and knowledge of the older members here is absolutely paramount to this forums survival as a place where meaningful discussions take place regularly. But it needs to be used in a way that's meaningful to the users who only want to spend $300 on an amp. You can't place the blame entirely on new users who see four threads singing the praises of LD products and few (if any) threads where the same product is really put to the test by the more experienced users who've heard a good cross section of amplifiers who say otherwise. As an aside, another less negative aspect of phenomenons such as the LD crisis is that their products are bringing a lot of new people to tube amplification, new users who'll certainly at least consider more expensive amplifiers from the more expensive and respected amp companies (similar to weed as a gateway to cocaine, etc, or the SR60 as a gateway to the HD650, W5000, L3000, R10 in regards to trying others' more expensive products out). Eventually, a lot of these new LD owners will be feeding discussions on much more expensive amps they've come to collect. In summation: Get out there and compare that LD product to your expensive amps, be critical of it, but be honest and sincere at the same time. Your reviews, comparisons, thoughts on the amps in question will either cause the Penchum praise-parties to fall away or confirm their usefulness; your thoughts carry more weight than someone who just joined the site or only reviews LD (and a Zero) products and gives them nothing but praise. The result should be that your stated goals in furthering this community are achieved, and new users are better informed and more likely to get as deeply and passionately involved as you have, perpetuating more spirited and well-founded opinions being spread.

You are saying the more experienced members should buy some LD amps and review them? Is that not the reason behind meets? I think the issue is 3000 unnecessary posts. Said posts have been brought to everyone's attention and therefore I think the more experienced members have done what they can.

 

[fuzydice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think the issue is 3000 unnecessary posts. Said posts have been brought to everyone's attention and therefore I think the more experienced members have done what they can.

It's no question that Penchum talks a lot about LD products. He is, without a doubt, playing a key role in this phenomenon. But the reason why that role is so critical in generating such a tidal wave of interest in LD products is the more fundamentally important question to investigate. I think the more experienced users could have headed off such a phenomenon by never letting a single persons enthusiasm create such a large wave in the first place.

I could be way off base; it's just a discussion. And I'd rather read about people thinking about solutions to the undeniable problem than insulting each other.

(and my deepest apologies for using the term 'elderly.')

 

[Cool_Torpedo]

I can't speak for other members. I'm not elderly nor a veteran around here, but I like this place, I think I have some knowledge which I can share, and I'm still interested to keep learning from people who's more experienced.
Still I see no point in purchasing a USD500 amp just to write a review here if have the amplification part well covered, and weren't it, I wouldn't be looking at the lower side of the spectrum, but to the higher.

I think that the biggest problem with these rave reviews about any product is that the posters lack the humility to acknowledge that they haven't been exposed to really good performing products -which is not the same as expensive or from a "reputed" manufacturer-, nor are using good quality sources or phones to properly evaluate the things they try to speak about. They not even have some proper evaluation protocol and just copy the usual structure about bass, midrange, treble... So they write about how happy they're with their new discovery, how much it has been an improvement from their DAP's HP out, but they do in the style an expert would do. So any newbie reads that and ends up believing that s/he is in front of the eighth wonder. Then the fanboys club is created.

IMHO the more you know and the more experienced you are, the more careful you are expressing your opinions avoiding fanaticism and misleading people.

 

[olblueyez]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuzydice /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's no question that Penchum talks a lot about LD products. He is, without a doubt, playing a key role in this phenomenon. But the reason why that role is so critical in generating such a tidal wave of interest in LD products is the more fundamentally important question to investigate. I think the more experienced users could have headed off such a phenomenon by never letting a single persons winds create such a large wave in the first place. I could be way off base; it's just a discussion. And I'd rather read about people thinking about solutions to the undeniable problem than insulting each other. (and my deepest apologies for using the term 'elderly.')

Being able to head off all the fanboy speeches is physically impossible and the experienced members know this. This particular forum is way to big for that, and contains way too many posts for senior members to do what you recommend. That is why they say stuff like "Penchum is a shill" and leave it at that. If some of the members are able to realize good advice from a more experienced member then thats great. If they let a stubborn, argumenative, the world is flat attitude keep them from benefiting from said advice then that is unfortunite. This is a reality the experienced members have been dealing with for years and asking people who already do the many things they do for head-fi to do more is unfair and is most certainly not a solution to anything. How about everyone consider and or listen to their advice, would that not be the best way for this forum to function? No one should have to cater to a horde of stubborn people on any fourm, nor will they.

 

[boomana]

As another "elderly" member, I think fuzzydice missed the point. Those of us who are concerned with Penchum's posting history have never once said anything against any member getting, enjoying, and talking about Little Dot amps. Not one of us criticized his reviews. Not one of us has interrupted a Little Dot thread, in which the amps are being discussed, nor would we discourage discussion. The op asked a question, and we answered. I think our concerns are valid.

The only reason this thread focuses on Little Dots is that the op asked about them. If you misread this as a us vs. them/newbies vs. oldies/expensive amps vs. inexpensive amps thing, you are ignoring the real issue as well as reading with blinders on. I know that I and others have posted more frequently against individuals for excessive and detrimental fanboyism, on this site an others, concerning RSA, SinglePower and Headamp than on any Little Dot issue, and have also criticized, sometimes harshly, the business practices of LaRocco, SinglePower, and others, and these are amps we own and like. Little Dot isn't being singled out by a long shot, but those of us who care about the community will call out anyone, even if we like them and/or their products, if we feel the practices or posting history are detrimental to the community. How is that a newbie vs. oldie issue? How is that elitism? How does that create a divide unless you are are creating it in your mind and then attempting to pronouce it as a truth by posting misinformed conclusions based on limited understanding? Who then is creating what divide?

You want more established members to go out and buy a Little Dot amps so we can help this community? As Mike said, that's what meets are for. I would love to hear one of the newer improved models. I would love them to be wonderful. If any show up at the next Tampa meet, I'll make sure to take some time with them. Ironically, the members you accuse of creating a divide are the ones most active in organizing meets, including the last and future international meets as well as local and regional. The whole point is to bring people together, new and old members alike, sharing gear and learning from each other. What divide is in that?

I personally would like members who so easily accuse others of having elitist agendas to take a step back and learn a little more about who you are talking about and read posts across the board, rather than shooting from the hip after reading one thread on one topic. That would help this imagined divide more than looking for an agenda that doesn't exist. Or, go to a meet if you can, and see for yourselves that everyone is welcome even no matter what your gear, or even if you have no gear at all.

 

[olblueyez]

Very nicely put Boomana, I think you can put a fork in this thread.

 

[holland]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif You want more established members to go out and buy a Little Dot amps so we can help this community? As Mike said, that's what meets are for. I would love to hear one of the newer improved models. I would love them to be wonderful. If any show up at the next Tampa meet, I'll make sure to take some time with them.

That's why I want a review forum where posts are restricted to a templatize format in a point/counterpoint format. To follow up on reviews but with restricted input, and not full out reviews. Blurbs get lost, very easily. Searching for it, can be a needle in a haystack.

I find impressions from meets are about 80-90% accurate for the long haul. The details get fine tuned, but the first impressions largely remain. As a community resource, I think that's important. Go to a meet, make some notes, pull up the review thread, answer 5 or 6 questions and some terse comments and it's saved for as long as the data is backed up.

I think this will prevent those that post more frequently from having their opinions overshadow those of others, and hopefully provide more balance in that sense.

 

[penguindude]

Gosh, when is this gonna end? This thread has moved so far away from the original question posted by the OP that posting a comment about Hitler's moustache would nicely fit into the conversation. frihed89, what's driving the LD phenomenon u ask? The answer is a mix of factors: LD's long line of product releases in a very short time (in comparison to many other amp manufacturers); the rather good performance-to-price ratio; good customer service in general; and Penchum's active participation in the forum for sharing his view/experience of LD's amps with forum members.

So there. I'd appreciate if the OP (frihed89 are u listening?) can chime in for the last time and post your acknowledgement of these various factors and end the thread once and for all. THANK U.

 

[fuzydice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif As another "elderly" member, I think fuzzydice missed the point. Those of us who are concerned with Penchum's posting history have never once said anything against any member getting, enjoying, and talking about Little Dot amps. Not one of us criticized his reviews. Not one of us has interrupted a Little Dot thread, in which the amps are being discussed, nor would we discourage discussion. The op asked a question, and we answered. I think our concerns are valid. [remainder omitted]

I think your concerns are valid, as well. Reread my posts, please.

I feel that I should clarify this point you raise:

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif Little Dot isn't being singled out by a long shot, but those of us who care about the community will call out anyone, even if we like them and/or their products, if we feel the practices or posting history are detrimental to the community. How is that a newbie vs. oldie issue?

A company makes cheap amps, cheap amps tend to appeal to new users who aren't ready to invest in more expensive amps and such. They make their way to this forum and begin researching, whereupon they find a towering pile of praises for a particular companies products, and peppered throughout that pile is a recurring name. These new users also find a handful of experienced users who refuse to even try the products they're researching, writing them off as "cheap" or "chinese." A few of these experienced users, though, do take the time to put down meaningful comparisons, while the vast majority are silent. Putting all this research together, you end up with a lot of owners of this companies product, and a lot of them having a fiery respect for that one guy they keep seeing amongst all the praise. A phenomenon occurs. Suddenly, some experienced users are skeptical of that guy, and rightfully so. Now we have a lot of "oldies" in a thread going back and forth against that growing population of "newbies" over that guys merits and legitimacy. *

Having just explained that, that is not the point of my posts. The goal is to have a good discussion of products and get good amps in the right peoples hands and avoid the shilling that gets a lot of one companies amps in peoples hands for nefarious reasons. There are several ways to achieve that, and I merely brought up one possible attack vector (more experienced user involvement in reviewing/comparing these amps as a way to counter what they perceive as obvious shilling and the wave of baseless praise that follows).

A problem is that if someone is shilling a really good product, how do you oust them, or even truly identify them as shilling? You begin by getting those products in the hands** of those who have a clue what they're hearing to confirm or deny the praise, as false praise is the easiest way to shill. Genuine praise for a legitimately great product is difficult to attribute to shilling, 3000 posts on the same products or not.

[size=xx-small]* I was one of these people, and did two months of research on the cheaper tube amps.
** you don't have to buy one; these amps are so prevalent that I would assume they're at or could be at nearly every meet. [/size]