[breakfastchef]

Quote:

Originally Posted by grawk /img/forum/go_quote.gif It may be an audio forum to you. To a lot of us, it's more than that.

Two comments...

First, grawk, your comment was very powerful and revealing. It reeks of 'elitism' and draws a significant line in the sand between 'them' and 'us'. Nothing against you, at all. I am just saying that you put into words a feeling that I had that there was an entire other level in Head-Fi. I actually feel less inclined to actively participate than I did when I joined this forum several months ago.

Second, where are the moderators? This thread is so far off topic, includes personal attacks on other forum members and is teetering on a 'cat fight'. Why has this thread not been closed? I would like to see some linearity in moderator response when threads get out of hand. I make an off comment on one thread that was considered religious in nature and my comments were immediately deleted. Here, the 3,000+ club is running rampant and there is no intervention. This may tie into grawk's comment above.?

 

[GEK]

[size=x-large]The Product. The Service[/size].

 

[grawk]

It's not elitism. Anyone is welcome. Come to a meet, get to know people. Stop treating headfi as a place to sell products and better yourself, and instead make it a place to share and grow and meet people who like similar things to you. Anyone who's been to a meet will say the same thing. It doesn't matter if you've never posted, posted 3000 times about 1 product, or participate regularly. It's open. It's friendly. It's fun. It's not about cramming products down your throat.

 

[breakfastchef]

Quote:

Originally Posted by grawk /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's not elitism. Anyone is welcome. Come to a meet, get to know people. Stop treating headfi as a place to sell products and better yourself, and instead make it a place to share and grow and meet people who like similar things to you. Anyone who's been to a meet will say the same thing. It doesn't matter if you've never posted, posted 3000 times about 1 product, or participate regularly. It's open. It's friendly. It's fun. It's not about cramming products down your throat.

I spent a day at CanJam '08 and was fascinated. I listened to lots of systems and asked lots of questions. Though I really was pleased with the LD MKII (thanks for the review Penchum), I elevated to a Woo system after meeting Jack and listening to his products.

 

[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pricklely Peete /img/forum/go_quote.gif I disagree completely. Please cut out the condescending tone... I think your dead wrong. I shouldn't be marginalized or threatened because of that view. Your entitled to your position, as is Grawk. I don't want shilling or any other form of BS in here, but I also don't want knee jerk reactionaries digging up skeletons where there aren't any either. To go from one extreme to the other serves no valuable purpose ........In the end it divides rather than brings people together. I would think you'd be a little more sensitive to this type of thing if you truly did care about community. I see nothing but hurt feelings, bruised egos and litany of other thinly veiled underhanded tactics... What good did Grawk hope to accomplish by hi-jacking this thread with the "shilling" comment. ? Sense of community ? This doesn't help anyone on this board now does it ? What about trampling all over the forum rules by hi-jacking this thread and then to top if off, start this whole pissing match over one poor bugger who must be horrified by the so called Adults in this thread ? Are you completely bereft of any compassion ? Any of you ? Go have a good long look in the mirror...... I think all of us should be a little ashamed of ourselves for this pointless diatribe...... I apologize to Grawk for getting personal...normally I stay away from such things.... Peete.

I have nothing to be ashamed for, nor have I or others gone on a pointless diatribe. You are missing the point once again. Grawk didn't highjack this thread by saying he believed the Little Dot phenomenon was driven by shilling. He answered the op's question as he saw it. Since he is not the only long-standing member who thinks at least the issue should be looked into, we have posted our thoughts and reasoning for them as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by breakfastchef /img/forum/go_quote.gif Two comments... First, grawk, your comment was very powerful and revealing. It reeks of 'elitism' and draws a significant line in the sand between 'them' and 'us'. Nothing against you, at all. I am just saying that you put into words a feeling that I had that there was an entire other level in Head-Fi. I actually feel less inclined to actively participate than I did when I joined this forum several months ago. Second, where are the moderators? This thread is so far off topic, includes personal attacks on other forum members and is teetering on a 'cat fight'. Why has this thread not been closed? I would like to see some linearity in moderator response when threads get out of hand. I make an off comment on one thread that was considered religious in nature and my comments were immediately deleted. Here, the 3,000+ club is running rampant and there is no intervention. This may tie into grawk's comment above.?

Breakfast chef, where is the elitism in that post? As grawk said, come to a meet. I believe we've welcomed you to any/all of our Florida meets. There's another one in Tampa on November 15. You are more than welcome to join us. Bring your gear!

The only reason this thread got off topic is when some members decided to post personal attacks against some of us who would like Penchum's posting history to at least be brought to light and questioned, which is very much on topic to this thread. Heated debate has always been a part of threads in which members hold opposing views, so some is to be expected.

I have to repeat, as it seems to have gotten lost, but is clearly on topic, that no one has once said that the Little Dots haven't made many members happy. Those members should be able to post about that, and those posts, in some part, keep the threads in view for others to read and get excited. That was never in question. The difference between the Little Dot threads and those of every other amp on this forum, is that there is one man with 3000+ posts, mostly about Little Dots, behind the majority of the hype, and a host of members who "spread the word" without having much if any experience of their own with any other amps. The op wanted to know what was driving the phenomenon and that is the answer as many of us see it.

 

[olblueyez]

Why is it that the fanboys always seem to want to defend a LD amp when some people here wish to expose and discuss shilling and shilling is a very large part of "The Phenomenon"! Good Amps at cheap prices and shilling is the phenomenon. Can we please separate shilling and amplifiers as they are two completely different issues? Is there anyone here who cant understand that? I need to say (for the second time) Penchum has written very nice reviews about all of his amps, so what are the other 3000 LD posts for?

 

[tyrion]

Quote:

Originally Posted by breakfastchef /img/forum/go_quote.gif Two comments... First, grawk, your comment was very powerful and revealing. It reeks of 'elitism' and draws a significant line in the sand between 'them' and 'us'. Nothing against you, at all. I am just saying that you put into words a feeling that I had that there was an entire other level in Head-Fi. I actually feel less inclined to actively participate than I did when I joined this forum several months ago. Second, where are the moderators? This thread is so far off topic, includes personal attacks on other forum members and is teetering on a 'cat fight'. Why has this thread not been closed? I would like to see some linearity in moderator response when threads get out of hand. I make an off comment on one thread that was considered religious in nature and my comments were immediately deleted. Here, the 3,000+ club is running rampant and there is no intervention. This may tie into grawk's comment above.?

There is nothing elitist about grawk or his comments. He, like myself, boomana, jp11801 truly care about this community. We have become good friends through this audio website. We travel together to go to meets, music festivals, just to hang out. We have met people all over from this website and get along with probably 99% of them. So yeah, we have a lot of posts but that's because we like this place as an audio website and more. If you can't get your hands around that, that is unfortunate. There is way too much subtle and not so subtle shilling on this website. I hope there will be a rule in place soon that will address this so mods will be better able to respond to the practice.

So you don't like the moderation in this thread. I haven't seen one person report a single post from this thread other than grawk. Do you think we read every thread that is posted on this website? If you do, guess again. I've read this entire thread and I don't see where anyone has gone too far in terms of personal attacks. I'm not saying they don't exist but it seems that no one thought enough of them to report them. I believe your religious comment was reported and the response was to delete it. The forum specifically states that religious discussion is not permitted.

This thread asked a question, "What is driving the Little Dot phenomenon?" People suggesting that Penchum is a shill is a valid response to that question. Discussing why someone might feel that he is a shill is a valid response to this thread. These threads are not the personal property of the person who starts it. You ask a question, sometimes you get answers you don't like. If someone can't handle that then maybe they should move on.

 

[holland]

There's alot of back and forth here. There are good arguments on both sides. One is that there is something that seems amiss. The other is that, like vcoheda, what can you do about it without censuring a member for his enthusiasm...there's no tangible proof (bank deposits, etc.). There's been alot of stuff thrown around, but I would like to take a different approach. As in professional life, throwing around arguments and accusations mean very little. Perhaps I've missed it, but I would like to propose a partial solution.

I think there should be dedicated boards for reviews. These are moderator induced. The posts should be in this manner. 1 post, 1 user, 1 time per thread. The moderator/admin would start a thread about an amp, and set the template with a poll (good, bad, etc.). The template would be in the form of a questions, and the posts would be answers. This can be restricted, possibly, through the forum software. The follow up posts must answer those questions, and once you post, that's it, no more. The intent is to have a quick place to search for reviews by all members where the layout is essentially a bunch of points, no arguments. I would suggest more experienced reviewers like Iron_Dreamer, ASR, etc. are consulted for the templates.

The same should apply for vendor reviews, as in quality of service, expediency, how fast they turn around orders. It would be a separate board.

The other forums would stay as is, and the potential issues would still remain....but at least instead of getting arguments, one can reference an amp, and if users like grawk, boomana, vcoheda, etc., have something to say about it, it would be a condensed form in response to attributes of the amp.

I think this is a huge value add. The other forums can be for community discussions. The supposed shilling may still be there, but at least there is an official Head-Fi sponsored reference point where there may be balanced views on a specific amp.

I'm not saying this will work, but it has the potential to. I almost never read any forum other than the DIY primarily because it seems like a more reasonable forum. I'm not saying I have much to add, as I don't consider myself an audiophile, but threads of repeated nonsense especially from those of no experience (not this thread) and the fanboism, are what have driven me to not even look at these forums. In that vein, I have lost the sense of community, whereas these forums should be inducing that sense. I follow DIY, because it's intriguing, and I am involved in DIY activities as my primary hobby.

I think the community issue is larger than amp discussions. I don't know if there is anything that really can be done, short of censure or censorship.

I am not saying Penchum is or isn't a shill. I don't know. I don't read his posts, and quite frankly, I don't care to. LD makes nice looking amps (aesthetically), but I've not heard them and don't really care to at this point in time.

 

[immtbiker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif ... I dont have any of those amps but I have spent enough time here to realize the British and American amps are extremely worthy amps and should be researched buy the OP....

olblueyez,
(Please don't take this personally, because this is a generic issue that we need to curb). While I agree with a lot of what you say in this thread, this is a perfect example of one of the complaints that have been brought up before.

Recommending something, without ever hearing it, is one of the problems that mislead members about factual info. Saying that British and American amps are extremely worthy, is a stereotypical statement that has no real life experience behind it, only part of the "what I've read, or what I'm told" syndrome.
In a forum based upon spending large amounts of money based on other's opinions, interjecting opinion without ever having any experience should be avoided. I know you meant well, but this seems to be a pattern that members follow which can hurt potential buyer.

 

[immtbiker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by holland /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think there should be dedicated boards for reviews. These are moderator induced. The posts should be in this manner. 1 post, 1 user, 1 time per thread. The moderator/admin would start a thread about an amp, and set the template with a poll (good, bad, etc.). The template would be in the form of a questions, and the posts would be answers. This can be restricted, possibly, through the forum software. The follow up posts must answer those questions, and once you post, that's it, no more. The intent is to have a quick place to search for reviews by all members where the layout is essentially a bunch of points, no arguments. I would suggest more experienced reviewers like Iron_Dreamer, ASR, etc. are consulted for the templates.

I, as a moderator. try to read every review that is posted on Head-Fi, especially since I have spent quite a few weeks worth of my time writing my own.
When I see one that is worthy, I let it simmer for a while and let people post their comments, good or bad. After a fair amount of time, I bring the review to my fellow moderator's attention, and see if anyone object to me posting it in the dedicated "Review" forum of each sub genre review forum, which is then locked and the comments are deleted, so that it becomes a genuine dedicated review only.
We have a separate place in each of the forums for reviews, just as you suggested. We lost a lot of links in the crash of November '07, but the reviews are still there.
If someone sees a review that they feel worthy of a sticky in a review forum, please feel free to PM me, and I'll assess it, which is then posed to my peers, so that it is not just the opinion of on person of whether or not it is review worthy.

The review sub-forums have seem to be lost in the latest upgrade, I will check into that. It is probably just an over site.

 

[holland]

I was actually thinking of something that isn't locked, that can grow, with input in a restricted manner. So, as more people audition amps, the views can be added in response to the questions/issues posed in the template. Sort of a point and counterpoint moderated thread.

That would allow a single thread to accumulate, with various input, not just a single post from worthy reviews.

A similar restricted method for vendors (such as the Singlepower and Xin threads), to account for user feedback, though I presume that could probably fall under the feedback forum.

Just a thought, not sure if it would actually work.

 

[Cool_Torpedo]

Yes, the reviews are there, but now you need to search for them, the review sub-forums for amps and phones disappeared when the new portable phones and amps sub-forums opened.
Are you planning to re-open the reviews sub-forums?

 

[QQQ]

If we never see another review from Penchum, i know whom to "thank".

 

[fuzydice]

The elderly members of this forum have good intentions in fighting this fight against a possible shill, no doubt about it. No one likes to see a community they're intimately involved with deteriorate. However, the cause they're fighting for here--to help people make informed decisions apart from sensationalized & falsely based opinions--isn't being helped by threads like this, at least not in the case of LD/Penchum. Penchum's reviews and posts come across as professional, non-condescending and extremely helpful to new members of the forum and hobby alike, while the posts by the elder members in this thread come across as elitist and antagonistic.

The elderly members are not generally the ones buying LD products; it's the newer members, and right now the chasm between the new users and the elderly is actively being widened by the behavior in this thread; If you want to keep this forum united under the banners you guys are rallying behind, then this may not be the most helpful means of achieving it.

So how do you achieve unification & the propagation of useful opinions that will aid in the purchase of new amps without calling people out for being shills? Well, what I want to see more of is active involvement from these same elderly members in the assessment of these "cheap chinese products" other than blanket statements alluding to "it's chinese, it's crap." Comments to that effect are not helpful to new buyers; we need someone experienced to sit down with the product and point out its flaws, indicate exactly why a $250 LD MKIII is not on the same level as a DV, RSA, Woo, etc, product, and such and so forth. There is a small amount of this going on, but it can't compete with the amount of baseless praise. And baseless praise only begets more baseless praise, thus threads like this asking where it all began.

The experience and knowledge of the older members here is absolutely paramount to this forums survival as a place where meaningful discussions take place regularly. But it needs to be used in a way that's meaningful to the users who only want to spend $300 on an amp. You can't place the blame entirely on new users who see four threads singing the praises of LD products and few (if any) threads where the same product is really put to the test by the more experienced users who've heard a good cross section of amplifiers who say otherwise.

As an aside, another less negative aspect of phenomenons such as the LD crisis is that their products are bringing a lot of new people to tube amplification, new users who'll certainly at least consider more expensive amplifiers from the more expensive and respected amp companies (similar to weed as a gateway to cocaine, etc, or the SR60 as a gateway to the HD650, W5000, L3000, R10 in regards to trying others' more expensive products out). Eventually, a lot of these new LD owners will be feeding discussions on much more expensive amps they've come to collect.

In summation: Get out there and compare that LD product to your expensive amps, be critical of it, but be honest and sincere at the same time. Your reviews, comparisons, thoughts on the amps in question will either cause the Penchum praise-parties to fall away or confirm their usefulness; your thoughts carry more weight than someone who just joined the site or only reviews LD (and a Zero) products and gives them nothing but praise. The result should be that your stated goals in furthering this community are achieved, and new users are better informed and more likely to get as deeply and passionately involved as you have, perpetuating more spirited and well-founded opinions being spread.

 

[grawk]

IJWTS that I'm not elderly