[grawk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frihed89 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hardly. I own MAD Ear+ HD, SP MPX3 Slam SE, a BC SBH and a Meier 2Move. No Little Dots, and I have never even heard one. I am generally very negative about Chinese products, because of reliability issues. But I am really curious because of its popularity and I wanted to find out why so many people are buying it.

I wasn't saying you were shilling. I was saying shilling is what drove the little dot phenomenon.

 

[HeatFan12]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jp11801 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Heatfan12 take the pepsi challenge and come to the Tampa meet in November bring your Little Dot armada of amps and the MF amp and lets put it up against some of the other amps there. I would love to eat some crow . Besides you will probably have a great time with the SoFlo crews that invades Tampa for their event. We can even report back on the findings. Oh and more $$ is not always better but better design, parts and implementation is is always better. I was not bowled over with the MF amps when MyArroyo brought them over to my house for a listen, he loved them for their performance vs price but since then has moved on the a SP MPX3.

Hey JP..

I always like reading your posts, straight to the point and making sense. I don't know where I said that the LD amps are the best in the world, as several think....My "point" in responding was about the negativity that was started in the beginning of the thread.

If someone likes an amp and several people respond positively, why would others shoot it down. This was not a "comparison" thread on amps. It "was" about liking LD amps. Opinions are opinions and always welcome, but g... you know you lit the fire, and it really was unnecessary, because look at the thread now.

JP, I'm positive a lot of amps will blow LD away, but is it right or wrong to like them? My point again....If you are happy with your setup, enjoy it.

Let me try to clear this up- All Chinese amps are horrible. But I love them...

In reference to Nov. JP, I'll be working mids and weekends again, so impossible to be there.....I have always wanted to meet the FL gang, I always read all the meet impressions......Sounds like a lot of fun....

And, olblueyez, you are the man....Peace

 

[olblueyez]

Just to be crystal clear, I said that Im sure Little-Dot makes good amps.

 

[Frihed89]

Well, i think the LD owners who have posted here sound like an open, down-to-earth, practical bunch of people whose ranks make up the heartbeat and the soul of headfi hi-fi, to a much greater extent than the Headphoneus Supremus crowd.

 

[Lapwing]

Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif So you bought your LD III based on specs?

Absolutely not.. read my previous posts in this thread, I bought the LD because of many testimonials claiming very high build quality, incredible customer service (David is the best rep I've ever experienced), and most importantly the price point. The only spec I cared about was the power output rating because I needed something powerful enough for my high impedance HD-650s. The frequency response and THD+N specs are well above limits of perception according to my psychoacoustic sources.

 

[HeatFan12]

Just to be crystal clear, I said that Im sure Little-Dot makes good amps.


Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif As long as Penchum likes your Little-Dots then they must be the best.

I'm sorry, I misread your post blue..^...My bad...


So, how about those Miami Dolphins?

 

[Lapwing]

Quote:

Originally Posted by grawk /img/forum/go_quote.gif And what data analysis have you seen regarding little dot amps as compared to other amplifiers?

None comparing the LD, but there aught to be one conducted apparently, judging from this thread

I've read numerous reports pitting a variety of other amps against each other, in every analysis audibly perceivable differences were negligible at best.

 

[jp11801]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeatFan12 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hey JP.. If someone likes an amp and several people respond positively, why would others shoot it down. This was not a "comparison" thread on amps. It "was" about liking LD amps. Opinions are opinions and always welcome, but g... you know you lit the fire, and it really was unnecessary, because look at the thread now. JP, I'm positive a lot of amps will blow LD away, but is it right or wrong to like them? My point again....If you are happy with your setup, enjoy it. In reference to Nov. JP, I'll be working mids and weekends again, so impossible to be there.....I have always wanted to meet the FL gang, I always read all the meet impressions......Sounds like a lot of fun....

That's too bad that you can not attend the meet as I always look forward to meeting more members of the community. I am sure Mike (Tyrion) will probably host a meet in the beginning of the year.

I am sorry it I came off the wrong way, I think it is great people are loving whatever they own. I am probably overly sensitive to to this a watt is a watt thing or the statements that portray that an entry level amp is sonically at the same level as some of the better tried and true amps. I in no way seek to diminish this enjoyment.

I would however say there is a Taliban/Khmer Rouge like element (which you Heatfan are not a part of) here on headfi that seeks to eliminate or shout down members when they point out that while these amps may be bargains they are not the last word. They do so with an anti-elitist/populist argument that while rousing is flawed. There line of reasoning (if you can call it that) has almost no basis in actual experience.

 

[Lapwing]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jp11801 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would however say there is a Taliban/Khmer Rouge like element (which you Heatfan are not a part of) here on headfi that seeks to eliminate or shout down members when they point out that while these amps may be bargains they are not the last word. They do so with an anti-elitist/populist argument that while rousing is flawed. There line of reasoning (if you can call it that) has almost no basis in actual experience.

Can you give an example of this? Nothing I've read from Penchum or others exhibit this for the LD, they just express their excitement for them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jp11801 /img/forum/go_quote.gif an entry level amp is sonically at the same level as some of the better tried and true amps.

Why is this so hard for you to believe? Is it merely to justify the money you spent?
Price does not equal performance, especially when it comes to audio equipment.

 

[jpstereo]

I don't think any LD owners are professing that they are the "be all and end all" of amps. Hell, I'd like to be able to own or experience some of the higher priced units out there which are no doubt sonically superb but I do truly believe there is a point of diminishing returns. Of course, If I went that route I would have to spend much more on source, cans cables etc ... I listen for maybe 10 - 20 hours a week and for that the LDs do a fine, fine job. Besides, I have other hobbies that need feeding too!

 

[jp11801]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lapwing /img/forum/go_quote.gif Can you give an example of this? Nothing I've read from Penchum or others exhibit this for the LD, they just express their excitement for them. Why is this so hard for you to believe? Is it merely to justify the money you spent? Price does not equal performance, especially when it comes to audio equipment.

First off it is nice to see introspection on your part I never said it was you I was referring to and I've never even heard of Penchum (outside of mention in this thread). I am not going to go through previous threads at this point but there certainly is this head in the sand component that is evident. Actually in your posts as well to a degree. In talking about specs you utterly fail to
A) describe in any way the LDs performance relating to a watt is a watt and how specs play into it.
B) as an engineer (you not me) should be constantly engaged in learning with a clear understanding that we do not know all. Each day teaches us that we did not know all we thought we knew yesterday.

In an illustration to this I was at an event over the weekend at a local recoding studio started by award winning sound engineer Cookie Marenco who for years did not believe in much of this audiophile stuff (wires, amps etc) well after hearing the difference in an item she could not measure (wire) she rewired her entire studio with a wire Jean Claude Reynaud (speaker manufacturer), why would she do that?

I never said price equals performance, this is again another populist argument that is just ridiculous. Yes the more you spend the less the bang for that dollar and in some instances after certain thresholds there may be no gains but c'mon a LD is not going to stack well against amps in the 1k category. I am more than willing to put up or s h u t up in that area and urge LD owners to bring there (stock) amps to a local meet hey we are having on in LA in October as we can take the pepsi challenge.

once again for those that did not hear it clearly the first time, I am glad you like your LD amps and that they bring you joy. I also think it is a great way to get started in the hobby

 

[HeatFan12]

Quote:

I am sorry it I came off the wrong way, I think it is great people are loving whatever they own.

Hey JP, in my previous post when I wrote g... started the fire, I was referring to grawk, I just abbreviated it.

I guess his one "shilling" post came off as the OP was doing it and then I guess it just ran downhill from there and interpreted his other posts as "more expensive" always better.

But then he posted this-
Quote:

Originally Posted by grawk /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't trust anyone's ears but my own. I've owned many amps, and listened to many others. The one I picked was hardly the most expensive, and no where near the least. There are lots of variables at play. All I'm saying is that it's easy to love an amp when you don't have a lot of experience with others. That's a good thing for you, but it doesn't make your judgement something that others should base decisions on.

Hey grawk, why not say that in the beginning, it makes sense...However...putting down another amp or owner of said amp because they like them, even if they don't have anything to compare it to, is just not correct.

Then it seemed olblueeyez jumped on the bandwagon and there it all went...

I'm exhausted, I need a drink...

Thanks again...

 

[Lapwing]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jp11801 /img/forum/go_quote.gif in your posts as well to a degree. In talking about specs you utterly fail to A) describe in any way the LDs performance relating to a watt is a watt and how specs play into it. B) as an engineer (you not me) should be constantly engaged in learning with a clear understanding that we do not know all. Each day teaches us that we did not know all we thought we knew yesterday.

A) I did describe the LD's specs as "well above limits of perception"
It's frequency response is 12Hz - 100KHz, young human hearing can detect within 20Hz and 20KHz. And it's THD is 0.15%, the best detectable limit of perception for THD is 0.3%, while most people cannot detect a THD of 1%.

B) I am indeed very interested in learning all I can, but (subjective reviews aside) I have not seen any evidence at all that shows an expensive "high end" amp sounds perceivably better than a well designed inexpensive amp like the Little Dots. I've actually only come across the opposite -- reports both double blind testing and data analysis which conclude that there is not a perceivable difference. If I were to come across something that supports your views in a reasonable and scientific manor I would certainly take it into consideration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jp11801 /img/forum/go_quote.gif In an illustration to this I was at an event over the weekend at a local recoding studio started by award winning sound engineer Cookie Marenco who for years did not believe in much of this audiophile stuff (wires, amps etc) well after hearing the difference in an item she could not measure (wire) she rewired her entire studio with a wire Jean Claude Reynaud (speaker manufacturer), why would she do that?

I find that laughable.. please don't get me started talking about cables

Quote:

Originally Posted by jp11801 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am more than willing to put up or s h u t up in that area and urge LD owners to bring there (stock) amps to a local meet hey we are having on in LA in October as we can take the pepsi challenge.

I would be more than willing to take a comparison challenge if you could find a way to balance the amplifier gains to within +- 0.1 dB not clipped of eachother (not an easy task but entirely necessary). And if I did find a significant difference I would humbly join your side

 

[grawk]

The reason I didn't saw in the beginning where I was coming from is because the thread is "What is driving the Little Dot phenomenon?" not "What does grawk use to decide when evaluating amps". What is driving the little dot phenomenon is shilling.

As to the laughable argument that a watt is a watt, well, I'd say if you can't hear a difference between a little dot and a zana deux, then you should consider yourself lucky.

I'd say a fair test would be two people set up their amps so that they sound best to them. Then listen to both. If after doing this, you think the little dot sounds better, rejoice, you've saved yourself an expensive journey (that is fun, but still).

 

[Sherwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lapwing /img/forum/go_quote.gif A)If I were to come across something that supports your views in a reasonable and scientific manor I would certainly take it into consideration.

I just so happen to live in a very reasonable and scientific manor. I inherited it from my father.

Should you wish to conduct any tests there, please feel free.