What if?

[freakydrew]

I was going to copy the original post and remove cables and insert a famous religious being....but that would be against the rules! (still funny in my head though).

Anyway, CNET did a great review on monoprice cables. Said all the CNET labs use monoprice cables and a bunch of the testers do as well in their home high end audio-video set up....works for cnet, good enough for me!

 

[3602]

They say good things about it, they get payed and even get to keep the cable (or reviewed product). Trust me. I got free stuff this way (from local firms).
What we want, need, is an explanation of how capacitance, inductance and resistance affect sound. Say two pieces of material, same shape, same length, same diameter. Here's it: one of them has higher capacitance/inductance/resistance than the other, so when we push through the same freq. sweep, what changes? Treble? Bass? Timbre? "Time"? Nothing? If there is a change, how much of that is audible to a "normal" Human being?

 

[Lazarus Short]

[size=large]"Wire" we discussing this again?[/size]

 

[TheAttorney]

Uncle Erik, I haven’t spotted that anyone has actually directly answered your questions.
So, against my better judgement, I’ll bite and try to do just that.

A while ago, I posted a positive review of a very expensive Transparent interconnect cable. So I’ll use that as my reference point for the following:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif Suppose the manufacturer … admits that his entire business is a fraud. He laughs about how he just made up all the claims… and can't believe that people are stupid enough to fall for it. If that happened, would you still believe your cable makes a difference?

Yes, because the differences I heard were without any doubt to me, carefully taking all placebo, etc into account. However, I would certainly be very annoyed, and this would re-enforce my view that the high end of anything has ridiculously high margins, based on the product’s apparent material content. I wouldn’t buy from that company again and I might even try “rolling my own” if I felt I had the time.
Quote:

Suppose a scientific breakthrough occurs where it is clearly demonstrated that cables do make a difference. That a method of testing is developed that allows cables to be evaluated for their sound signature and newer, better cables to be developed… Suppose the cable you own is scientifically proven to be one of the fraudulent models. If that happened, would you still believe your cable makes a difference?

Yes, because the differences I heard were without any doubt to me. However, I would start to question how significant that difference was – i.e. whether I had made more of the difference than it deserved and I potentially could have found the same difference at a lower price.

I would also try to be open minded about the new measurements: The next time I was in upgrade mode, I would find the lowest cost cable that had as good measurements as my intended new high end cable. I would still let my ears be the final judge, but if the low cost cable sounded as good to me, then I would put more emphasis on trusting those new measurements in the future.

 

[nezbleu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3602 /img/forum/go_quote.gif What we want, need, is an explanation of how capacitance, inductance and resistance affect sound. Say two pieces of material, same shape, same length, same diameter. Here's it: one of them has higher capacitance/inductance/resistance than the other, so when we push through the same freq. sweep, what changes? Treble? Bass? Timbre? "Time"? Nothing? If there is a change, how much of that is audible to a "normal" Human being?

This has been done many times. For a good summary, go to theaudiocritic.com and the back issues, I think it was issue 16 where he did a nice analysis of the effects of RLC values which had been measured for several high-end cables.

You have to realize that the cable is part of a network, and the effect of the RLC of the cable is influenced by the rest of the network; i.e., the source impedance of the driving device and the impedance of the load. Also, of course, resistance, inductance, and capacitance of a cable are a function of length (x mOhms/meter, etc). If you keep the cable short enough it is impossible for it to have a significant effect.

The point, though, is that high-end wire pushers don't even talk about the RLC of their wire, they make up a bunch of pseudo-scientific clap-trap about crystal structure and micro-diodes and sell their junk on the basis of the "magic" properties. Anybody can make a cheap low-capacitance cable, but nobody can reproduce the FuBar 9000's micro-crystal structure and patented quasi-helical windings, silver-cored teflon coated foam dielectric triple-shielded multi-conductor braided solid 200% pure copper... what was I saying?

My favourite is directional cables that carry AC signals.

 

[TheBigCW]

My favourite are black, CD sized components that alter quantum physics. Ooooooh, spooky!

 

[nezbleu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAttorney /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, because the differences I heard were without any doubt to me, carefully taking all placebo, etc into account.

This reminds me of the time a stereo shop in Toronto invited some customers in to audition some new interconnects which they would A/B against a well-known competitor. The true believers were clustered in the "sweet spot" of the room, listening intently, murmuring among themselves, literally taking notes. When the A/B comparison was done they presented their analysis; they all heard marked differences between the two wires. However, they had actually listened to an A/A test, no switching was done at all! But they had no doubts about the differences they heard.

I wasn't there, but I am willing to bet that they heard one as having more bass "slam" and extension, while the "other" (actually same wire) would have had more fine detail, "air" and space around the instruments. Oh, and I'm sure one had better "Pace, Rhythm, and Timing".

 

[TheAttorney]

nezbleu, I totally agree with you. Such A/B type tests are a complete waste of time when comparing neutral components

But I'm not going to continue down this downward spiral. I gave an honest answer to an honest question.

 

[TheBigCW]

God, there is NO audio buzzword I hate more than PRaT. THAT MEANS NOTHING. The only thing that can supply Pace, Rhythm, and Timing is the MUSIC. To change that, the cables would have to be affecting the RATE the music plays at! That's such a ridiculous, awful buzzword.

 

[anetode]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif Suppose the manufacturer of your specialty cable gets drunk at a party, and unknowingly admits on video that his entire business is a fraud. He laughs about how he just made up all the claims and marketing copy and can't believe that people are stupid enough to fall for it. Then he laughs about some of the reviews he's read and thinks it's hilarious that people take his products seriously.

I'm inclined to believe that something like this has happened once already, if not many, many times over.

If an even like you described was widely publicized, I think the industry would take a hit, however it would not be decimated. I've seen similar things happen when pseudo-science gets blown out of the water, like the recent denouncement by Lancet of the study they published that ignited the late 90s scare over a potential causal link between vaccination and autism. Although those findings are now ridiculed by doctors, there's still a vocal contingent of parents with autistic children who are convinced that vaccines are to blame. There's an obvious psychological incentive for them to believe that explanation regardless of its scientific merit. The coupled economic, social and personal psychological incentives for buying into cables are, I think, at least as obvious.

 

[Shark_Jump]

If he is drunk, the next day he can just claim he was talking BS anyway, I don't think it would change anything.



Why do people buy porsche 911 turbos for the crawl to work each day?

Why does my wife buy expensive designer handbags when a plastic bag will serve most of the functionality?

I guess what I'm saying is you can't blame the vendors if people want to spend extra money on something that has no real extra functionality in day to day use. You have to ask the purchasor, and I guess they will say it makes them feel good about themselves.

What is wrong is when the purchasor is given an expectation of the functionality of the item by the vendor that it is not true. This is perpetuated when for example people on this website do reviews of various power cables. I would like to know what these guys are doing and if they have any vested interests.

 

[dex85]

the difference between 911 turbo and ordinary car is very obvious (acceleration, brakes, handling, ...) and can be scientifically measured. on the other hand, proper ABX test between cables have always the same outcome. the excuses against ABX are what they are, poor excuses to stay in the lie.

 

[prone2phone]

expensive cables are not meant for blind testing, just look at those babes, same sex but bigger eargasm

 

[Joelby]

^ Did I just get laid?

 

[3602]

:slams brick into face:
The best method? Buy whatever cable you believe and shut up. Period.