[OnlySound]

How about adding in acoustic research m2

 

[HPLobster]

Did you, or have you been using the Mojo with the Samsung phone? Apologies if I missed the answer.

NP I use the Mojo with a Samsung Galaxy Note 4 Edge and an USB OTG cable plus the Onkyo HF player.

How about adding in acoustic research m2

As I spend most of the last two days doing further research (and liking the QP1R more and more), I also stumbled across the AR M2 for the first time(mentioned in the HIFIheadphones youtube video about best DAPs). Written comparisons are insanely rare, however in the single one I found on head-fi, the writer stated he liked the questyle more (I'm replying from my mobile device right now and can't remember the exact wording).

I found a store which has a LOT of the TOTL-DAPs on display, ready to be listened to, within 100 km of my hometown Hamburg, but the Acoustic research is very hard to find over here...
I'm going to spend 3 weeks of July in Montréal, Canada - maybe I can find some cool stores there to. "k4rstar" (post #12) already gave me a recommendation in another thread, so thanks again

 

[buke9]

I found a store which has a LOT of the TOTL-DAPs on display, ready to be listened to, within 100 km of my hometown Hamburg, but the Acoustic research is very hard to find over here...

A audition is ten times better than a review.

 

[HPLobster]

A audition is ten times better than a review.

You certainly are right.
 
 
I don´t want to bore you with lame „gather-around-children-stories“, so maybe skip this post because I´ll go crazily off-topic from here on out. 

 
I think many have gathered their own similar experiences, but when I decided to buy my first „serious“ pair of headphones, I delved deep into the zone and read for dozens and dozens of hours, comparisons, reviews, wall of fames etc. and after that I thought I KNEW what the right closed headphones for me were (the B&W P7 or the Senn Momentum 2 OverEar).
So I went and listened to them and actually LIKED them. Great! Done and over with, right?! Well, some part of me didn´t fully agree (intuition? curiosity? ambition? gut feeling? paranoia? madness?) and I spent four additional (paaaaaainfully long) weeks trying to actually LISTEN to more cans and gather my OWN experience. Often the voice in my head told me „just buy the B&W already and get over with it, actually enjoy some music at home!“, but I really pushed it and ….. the process was awesome! You find out so much about yourself, your listening-preferences/sound-signature, what you generally like (also design- , built-, comfort- and brand image – wise), what you dislike, sometimes it can be VERY suprising. Of course one can get some excellent info and recommendation over here at head-fi.org, in forums or on other specialized sites (and we all do love them, right?

), but nothing replaces your own impressions, this is a fact!
 
 
Ok, so the cheesy end of the story is that I sat down to listen to a pair of PM-3s at a store. The employee gave me a Beyerdynamic T70p and an Audeze EL-8C to accompany them and after three songs, I knew I had finally found my headphone-soulmate

 Shortly after starting, I ended up abandoning further comparison and just enjoyed listening to my beloved Oppos for about 90 more minutes, I couldn´t stop!
I know they are „only mid-tier“ headphones all in all, but just like anyone else, I had a certain budget at that time. Still: For me personally, the Oppo PM-3s were a sound-revelation! I never once regreted my decision. And I almost missed out on them.
 
 
End of off-topic. My apologies, I just felt the urge to write this... 

 

[HPLobster]

I spend the last days scanning the web thoroughly for further information and thought that probably there will be some fellow head-fiers who are interested in my decision-progress, being in a similar stage of investigation.
 
I narrowed my selection down (or should I say expanded it in some way) to three DAPs in total:
 

1. Questyle QP1R
   
2. Cowon Plenue P1 (yeah, this one´s new on my list)
   
3. Luxury & Precision L5Pro
   

 
The Fiio X7 and the Onkyo DP-X1 have been excluded because –as I mentioned before- my focus doesn´t lie on functionality and gimmicks but mainly on sound quality (SQ), both seem to lose out on the latter. Still if I HAD to chose one of them, it´d be the Onkyo based solely on the feature-list (aptX-Bluetooth, MQA-Streaming, more power per se and balanced-output without having to invest in further modules), despite the common criticism of the 2,5 mm balanced TRRS output...).
 
I also concerned (and ruled out):
 

1. Calyx M : nice looking and highly regarded player, but batteries seem to last only meager 4-5 hours, UI seems a little laggy on videos i´ve seen, more expensive than the others but not necessarily better SQ, weird magnetic volume-slider attached to one side of the device
   
2. Acoustic Research M2: pricey in comparison, no USB-DAC-function, no digital-out, kind of bulky, last but not least the availability in Germany is even worse than in the case of the others
   
3. Cowon Plenue M: similar to the P1 but (although a newer model) the DAC doesn´t seem to be on par (BurrBrown PCM1795 on M vs 1792 on P1), 64 gb internal memory vs 128 gb, maybe battery runs a tad longer, since meanwhile (it made it´s appereance in 2014) the price is similar to the P1´s, I prefer the former flagship (and still can´t afford the Plenue S 
   
   )
   

 
So here are my recent favourites:
 

1. Questyle QP1R: very powerful device, fully discrete Class A amplifier, plays native DSD, in general SQ gets the HIGHEST praise, seperate (true) line-out, optical-out, battery life acceptable, two micro-SD-slots, very nice build-quality (assembled by the guys who build the PS4 and some little device called IPhone), best THD - values /// no USB-DAC-function, rudimental UI, no touchscreen but controversial, Ipod-esque wheel
   
2. Cowon Plenue P1: went kind of under the radar compared to most of the others but the SQ also gets HIGHEST praise, amazingly neat UI, USB-DAC-function, optical-output, by faaaar the best EQ (JetEffect 7) (although I personally don´t care much about this), also looks very sleek and valuable, outstanding output power but /// output impedance with 3 Ohm kind of high, battery-life is so-so (some claim 9, but some say 5 hours), no „true“ line-out but shared headphone-out, only one micro-SD-slot, Cowon doesn´t provide customer support in Germany anymore (would have to check with amazon.de first about further conditions…)
   
3. Luxury & Precision L5 Pro: SQ seems to be great in general…. sadly the UI isn´t in return, coaxial-output, info is scarce in comparison (I still have to dig deeper and invest more time) still I´m interested because of the high SQ-praise only and also the nice design of it, aaaand it furthermore has two customizable physical buttons which is awesome 
   
   
   

 
That´s it for now, I will do my best to listen to and compare these DAPs as soon as I possibly can, but I´m preparing for my holiday right now, so probably you won´t be hearing from me for at least 4 weeks.
 
Meanwhile maybe someone with practical experience regarding those DAPs would like to chime in?
 
 
So long!
 
Michael

 

[PinkyPowers]

Of those, I may go for the P1. But the QP1R is hard to dismiss.

 

[Currawong]

   
I also concerned (and ruled out):
 

1. Calyx M : nice looking and highly regarded player, but batteries seem to last only meager 4-5 hours, UI seems a little laggy on videos i´ve seen, more expensive than the others but not necessarily better SQ, weird magnetic volume-slider attached to one side of the device
   
2.  
   

 
FWIW I'm starting to feel that the X7 is as good-sounding as the Calyx. 

 

[HPLobster]

   
FWIW I'm starting to feel that the X7 is as good-sounding as the Calyx. 

 
Now that´s interesting! Is this a general impression or are you referring to a certain module, if I may ask?

 

[Currawong]

 

   
FWIW I'm starting to feel that the X7 is as good-sounding as the Calyx. 

 
Now that´s interesting! Is this a general impression or are you referring to a certain module, if I may ask?

At the moment I have the AM3 balanced module on, which has a bit more power. That's the trade-off -- if you want power, you lose battery life. I don't have the IEM module for the X7 here yet, which has the longest battery life. It will be the same no matter what DAP you choose. Other than that, a larger screen will drain more of the battery, though it wont have as much of an effect. A simple OS (X5, QPR1 etc.) will use less battery, especially when idle, though if you like listening to DSD (something I don't recommend in a portable set-up) it will suck the battery dry in no time.

 

[HPLobster]

A "little" update….
 
Initially I started out looking for a DAP to replace my Phone+Mojo-stack without losing SQ (and without paying more than 1000 € total).
 
However during the last 3 month of research and listening I realized that:
 
A)   A)  The older my daughter gets (she is 11 month old now), the less time I spend listening to music on the go (probably meanwhile less than 5-10% of the time)
B)   B)  As time goes by I honestly don´t care about the disadvantages of staking that much anymore as I used to do as the Mojo-sound has grown even more on me and I got over the inconvinience of utilizing my phone as a source
C)   C)  After listening to a few of the mentioned DAPs, the thought grew on me that I should better be focusing on upgrading than sidegrading after all...
 
So I actually still am thinking about adding a DAP to my sound-chain but am also on the verge of deciding to further invest in a future desktop-setup instead.
 
If any, it´ll most probably come down to either the AK300 (I just got aware of it 4 or 5 weeks ago) or the Onkyo-DAP. Since I do not plan to sell off my Chord Mojo anymore, the initial „SQ-first“-premise doesn´t apply anymore and those two seem to be the best overall-package to me.   
They seem like direct competitors because (on top of their high tier SQ of course) they both have a balanced out besides the digital out, both support Wi-Fi and bluetooth (aptX), the Onkyo supports MQA-Streaming and A&K has concrete plans on this, both have a fast and reliable UI ..... and both look good 

 
I was also considering a few other DAPs in this price range, but they all have their deal-breaking disadvantage to me:
 
- the Questyle QP1R has two microSD-slots, a „true“ line out and a very good amp (without paying the extras for a 380-Amp-module), however the UI is…. well, it is what it is….. and the interface/wheel is UNBEARABLE (yes, I tried it myself and no, I didn´t try the "fixed" version because I do not see why glueing a "thingy" permanently on to a 900€-device could honestly be a so called solution to that issue. Imagine Apple selling an IPhone and nobody getting a good connection and them handing out metal tubes to everyone saying: "Just lift them up while making a call, it should fix the problem".....errr.....no.
 
- the Cowon P1 has a perfect UI, a wonderful warm and musical sound and the best EQ of them all, however …. THAT´S IT, nothing else in here for the money
 
- the FiiO X7 does streaming but doesn´t support MQA, it supports Bluetooth but not aptX, and to have a „better“ SQ (the AM2-module) and/or a balanced out and/or a better amp, you have to pay extra and swap modules. I know it seems unfair to mention this as a negative, after all the idea behind this is the versatility, but I personally prefer the all-in-one-solution, even if there are slight compromises
 
- and finally to keep it simple and short: the Acoustic Research M2 doesn´t have a digital out, the Calyx M´s battery life is only 3-5 hours and the Luxury&Precision L5 Pro uses the same DAC as the AK300, but without all the other functionalities on top of it…
 
 
So, hopefully, I will be able to compare the Astell&Kern directly to the Onkyo one day, strangely enough the latter still is pretty hard to come by over here (besides some shady ebay sellers). I could buy even the Acoustic Research M2 (by far not as popular) at Amazon.de and the Pioneer-DAP is on display at the local Best Buy – counterpart, yet Onkyo seems to keep neglecting the german market regarding their DAP… 

 
 
 
Cheers, 
 
Michael

 

[Traveller]

...If any, it´ll most probably come down to either the AK300 (I just got aware of it 4 or 5 weeks ago) or the Onkyo-DAP. Since I do not plan to sell off my Chord Mojo anymore, the initial „SQ-first“-premise doesn´t apply anymore and those two seem to be the best overall-package to me ... So, hopefully, I will be able to compare the Astell&Kern directly to the Onkyo one day, strangely enough the latter still is pretty hard to come by over here (besides some shady ebay sellers). I could buy even the Acoustic Research M2 (by far not as popular) at Amazon.de and the Pioneer-DAP is on display at the local Best Buy – counterpart, yet Onkyo seems to keep neglecting the german market regarding their DAP…

Before you make a move, you may want to add the upcoming The Bit Opus #2 to your analysis. I'm not sure it will be worthy as I've only heard about it from the CamJam-London thread and some small previews on the 'net. What's interesting is the dual-DAC cfg. as well as it supposedly supports native DSD. Sorry, it's not much to go by, I know, but if you're not in a hurry...
 
I'm also in the market for a DAP to replace my aging iRiver and like yourself, I have the Mojo. The only difference in goals is that I would like to find a DAP with a sonic signature* that differs from the Mojo's. The DAP also needs to sound good standalone. Digital out is a given and while the Mojo is happy with coax, optical as well as USB, I want a DAP that has good USB support. I want (the ability) to use the DAP as an external "sound Card" for my Notebooks as well as act as a transport for my Mojo, Dragonfly Red as well as an older DAC (Headroom BitHead). Last but not least, I wouldn't mind balanced out. My Angie IEMs came with both SE and Balanced cables so it would be interesting to try out both.
 
In terms of interface, the AK70 fits the bill right out of the box. I've heard a lot about the firmware updates for the A&K AK3xx &AK2xx series, but I have yet to find an owner that actually tried it out, opting to stick to their optical solutions instead. If you have come across a post giving confirmation of complete functionality (bit-perfect transfer of everything from 32-bit PCM to 11MHz DSD) please let me know**. A few other things that attract me to the AK70 is the size (97x60x13/130g) and of course, the price (€600~650). The AK300, in comparison, is much larger @ 112x75x16/200g (= my LG G4 stacked three-high...) and just slightly more expensive (not a topic). Given that the Mojo is tops as a DAC, SQ is (still) important but UI, Interface and ergonomics (and form!) are just as important

The AK70 looks awesome, although I would have preferred a more neutral color. The minty-green however, won't be a deal breaker

2.3V is good enough for my Angies, even my 100ohm ER-4S and I have no plans to drive 800ohm cans with it. Not the biggest screen but besides the occasional album cover I don't see a need for a 5" screen... . For the (Hi-Res) formats it can't handle natively, well we do have the Mojo

 
*Compared to my Dragonfly Red, I find the Mojo more laid back as well as on the warmer side. Thus, I would prefer a DAP with a more clinical, brighter character to it; the Dragonfly uses a Sabre which (as configured) is up-front; my Bithead uses a Burr-Brown (albeit quite old) which is warm. Unfortunately I have no experience with Cirrus Logic (as in the AK2xx & AK70) or AKM (as in the AK3xx) DAC chips... .

 
 
**A&K has an alarming way of downgrading their DACs (reminds me of CPU / GPU chip-binning based on speed classes...

) Let's take the 300s as an example:
AK380 = dual AK4490 w native DSD processing, 32b384K PCM & DSD256;  AK320 = dual AK4490 sans native DSD & limited to 24b192K PCM & DSD128. AK300 = single AK4490 version of the 320.

 

[PinkyPowers]

**A&K has an alarming way of downgrading their DACs (reminds me of CPU / GPU chip-binning based on speed classes... :blink: ) Let's take the 300s as an example:
AK380 = dual AK4490 w native DSD processing, 32b384K PCM & DSD256;  AK320 = dual AK4490 sans native DSD & limited to 24b192K PCM & DSD128. AK300 = single AK4490 version of the 320.

What's alarming about a DAP manufacturer wanting to cover all the bases? They all do it. It's just good business to offer products in multiple price brackets. Not everybody can afford the best. I know I can't

 

[Traveller]

 

**A&K has an alarming way of downgrading their DACs (reminds me of CPU / GPU chip-binning based on speed classes...

) Let's take the 300s as an example:
AK380 = dual AK4490 w native DSD processing, 32b384K PCM & DSD256;  AK320 = dual AK4490 sans native DSD & limited to 24b192K PCM & DSD128. AK300 = single AK4490 version of the 320.

What's alarming about a DAP manufacturer wanting to cover all the bases? They all do it. It's just good business to offer products in multiple price brackets. Not everybody can afford the best. I know I can't

Taking the 320, 380 (and DP-X1) as examples, which add two physical DACs (and two physical Op-Amps) make for a clear upgrade path from the AK300 / Pioneer XDP-100R iterations (at least financially-speaking if not guaranteed sonically). In that sense, we are in agreement 

Taking the one and same DAC chip(s) and disabling* some of its properties in order to justify a less expensive model in the product-line is a bit harder (for me) to appreciate... . In other words, I would expect the 300 & 320 to also process native DSD and higher sampling rates for both PCM and DSD.
 
*Perhaps you know something I don't about DAC-chip manufactures; maybe they do bin their parts based on quality and sell the lesser capable chips at a discount, much like Intel and nVidia do... . In that case, your argument may very well be justified

Sure, there's bound to be some additional effort (Application Development) behind the handling of native DSD etc, but I refuse to accept it's the reason behind the almost four-fold price increase for it... (€1000->€2000->€3300+)... .
 
 
@HPLobster - something else for us to keep in mind; there are three sets of figures when reviewing the DAP's capabilities; what it can manage standalone, as an external DAC and as a transport. The AK300 and AK70 share the same figures:
Standalone:  24b192KHz PCM / 128DSD D2P - As noted above, only the 380 can process 256DSD and 32b384K PCM.
Digital Out: 32b384KHz PCM / 128DSD DoP - My Smartphone can "pass on" 256DSD (via DoP ...not that I need it) - so why can't all AKs?
Digital (USB) in: 24b96KHz PCM - my guess is like AQ (Dragonfly), A&K want their DAPs to work with OSes without the addition of special drivers (like Mojo's). 24b96HKz is Windows limit (I can't speak for other OSes).
 
 
Last but no least; a helpful member, @rkt31 gave us a great tip - an audiophile recording that was processed in about every flavor of PCM and DSD you could want. Load them up and listen to them via your Mojo. Then you can decide what you'd like your DAP to be able to process

 

 

[PinkyPowers]

I can't say for certain about the AK3xx line, but in the AK2xx line, native DSD was only possible in the AK240 because it had a DSD chip along side the two regular DAC ships the AK120II possesses. And the AK100II only had one DAC ship, and no DSD chip.

It seems to me that is what is happening in this new generation as well.

True DSD usually (if not always) requires a special hardware addition.

 

[Traveller]

I can't say for certain about the AK3xx line, but in the AK2xx line, native DSD was only possible in the AK240 because it had a DSD chip along side the two regular DAC ships the AK120II possesses...

The 2xx* series are CS4398 based; according to Cirrus Logic's Website, the chip does "support" DSD. The term "support" is ambiguous in this business. One cannot assume "DSD support" means "native DSD" but what we can assume is that the CS4398 is a traditional 24-bit 192KHz DAC chip. Hence, anything above that rate will have to be down-sampled. "Down-sampling" is not synonymous with "native"...

Hence, there is no 2xx that can process DSD (or 32-bit 384KHz files for that matter), natively...
 
As for the 3xx series, we can infer that all AK4490s have native support based on A&K's own statement:
 
"All of the AK380’s circuit design including the digital-analog converter (DAC) are ready for 32-bit processing to handle 32-bit music natively. Other products have traditionally used sample rate converter (SRC) method down sampling for playback. However, the AK380 is capable of playing back 32-bit, 384 kHz original sound without any down sampling.The result is the AK380 plays up to 32-bit, 384 kHz, any 24-bit music files, or double layer DSD 5.6MHz natively, without conversion or compression."
 
In any event, AKM is proud to "re-gram" the AK380...

"Premium D/A Converter, the VERITA AK4490 has been adopted in iriver’s the Astell&Kern AK380"
 
My guess, coming from a PC-hobby background is that we have to ultimately consider the bandwidth, regardless of PCM or DSD formats. The CS4398 has a bandwidth limit of 24x192000 or 4.6Mbits, while the AK4490 has 32x384000 or 12.8Mbit pipeline. DSD256 = 11.2Mbit.
 
*I see that your AK120 II also supports** DSD (although 5644800/176KHz = 32bits, not 24...

) and that A&K off-loaded the work from the CPU chip to a discrete DSD chip. Clearly this will improve performance for other parallel activities but I am willing to bet you don't have too much trouble with DSD (in terms of stuttering, etc.

) The 240's DSD chip can work all the wonders it wants but in the end, the CS4398 expects to see 24b192KHz max. I certainly hope you are happy with your AK120-II because as far as I can tell, the AK70 has an identical DAC construct and the AK70's on my short-list as noted above

**"DSD playback in 5.6MHz is supported after being converted/downsampled to 176KHz PC