[Kirosia]

this artifact you speak of could be related to the source or bad recording/poorly encoded lossy. The grado is a bit more forgiving IMO, and the senns tend to be revealing. But, it could be the senn itself.

I have the 650 and I don't understand what you mean exactly though, so I may be talking outta my bum.

 

[bigshot]

It's common for headphones designed for the mass market to have a bump in the upper mids. It makes them sound "more forward" with the rock and vocal music that most people listen to. Senns don't have a bump like that. They are relatively flat through the upper mids. That's why they sound better with classical music. Colored presentation and acoustic instruments don't mix well. You're assuming that the Senns have a dip, when the truth is that the cans you are comparing them to have a bump. The result is the same... Senns aren't the right cans for you and the kind of music you listen to. A good pair of Senns can be equalized to sound just about any way you want though.

See ya
Steve

 

[DevilDog]

Quote:

Originally Posted by audiofreak when i say it makes the songs sound different, i am comparing them to how i have heard the songs on the radio, on my speakers, and on my other cheaper headphones

I can only guess that your other sources don't give the full spectrum of sound and that may contribute to hearing a veil.
The Sennheiser veil is famous from those who aren't fan of Sennheisers. bigshot's explanation sounds pretty plausible. It's just not the headphone for everyone. It seems you either love them or think they're veiled or dark. It sounds like you should look elsewhere.

 

[drarthurwells]

The veil of the HD650 to me is an electronic glaze - a veil between you and the live music. The HD650 also shows some midrange congestion and coloration to me - manly hear it in vocals in the middle of complex instrumental backup.

Many other headphones and related components have this - particulary source components and program material.

Add them up and you have a lack of transparency - electronic walls that make the sound unnatural and artificial.

Start removing them and it makes for greater transparency.

These walls will keep you from hearing natural sound but they will also protect you from other distortion from the recording to the sound itself.

People get used to it and even may prefer electronic coloration and veils.

 

[Zorander]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donunus What coloration in what frequencies are referred to this veil? I have had 3 sennheisers the 580, the 555, and the px100. I am wondering which ones of these have that veil for example and how do I find it? There are colorations unique to the senns however that I find annoying and are totally absent from grados for example... It is somewhere in the upper midrange to the lower treble. a weird raucous glare that annoys the $#@#@ out of me. If not for this glare, my current 555s would be perfect for what it is. I am wondering if this glare will go away after break in or if this is the famous senn veil. The 555s are going into 60hrs loud break in and this glare is still present although less than it was out of the box. Grado sr60s for example don't have this even out of the box. The px100 doesnt have this glare either but it is too dull and boxy to be directly compared to the 555 and the 580s which both have this problem. I can't remember if it ever went away with my 580s(RIP) but it did have a lot of it out of the box. I do like the sound of my 555s but with many 80s new wave and various rock recordings this anomaly bugs me. Even my sr60s are better because they are fun and listenable with these problematic recordings. If my 555 reaches 100hrs burn in and this glare is still present, should i be able to conclude that I am really a grado man that has been buying the wrong cans? Well, I love the senns a lot except for this problem alone and maybe a bit more bass and low end impact would be nice too. The highest grados ive ever had were the 80s and ive heard the old 325 and didnt think it was worth the money. Is this glare that I'm talking about referred to as the senn VEIL??? or is it something else? Maybe I should switch my sights to grados or beyers... hmm. Pls help me understand what the senn veil is so that i will know if i should be purchasing more senns in the future or not.

Are you running the HD-580 through an amp?

 

[Andrea]

Funnily, I've been thinking that in fact The Veil had nothing to do with the real thing (i.e. a veil

) but was all about the subtle delicacy and refinement of the higher end Sennheiser Sound.

 

[PsychoZX]

I don't know what the sennhieser veil is. I seem to be more of the "what veil?" type of person.

 

[saint.panda]

I also think the HD 650 is not the last word in transparency and there is a slight veil but I venture to say that most (not all) of the excessive criticism derives from directly comparing the HD600/650 to brighter and differently equalized headphones (switching back and forth), especially if the brighter headphone is the baseline component.

Human hearing works by comparing the current sound to a previously heard sound, which has become the baseline of reference. If you play a totally flat noise (all frequencies equal in amplitude, e.g. pink noise) to a somebody for some time, it will be perceived as flat. However, if you first play a simple tone at 200 Hz for the person and then play the same neutral noise, the noise will be perceived as having a dip at 200 Hz. You will have to be exposed for the noise for some time, until the dip disappears and the noise will be perceived as flat again. Somebody who has been listening to a pair of Sennheiser HD 650 and switches to the AKG K1000 will characterize the AKG as having a thin, overly bright and bass-less sound. Vice versa, the Sennheiser will be described as dark and overly veiled. This is basic psychoacoustics and cannot be circumvented, even if you know it's there.

The HD 650's subdued treble and rather prominent bass/lower midrange combination can be regarded as dark but with a nice upgrade cable I find it to be just right. Personal preference of course.

Also, the HD 600/650's diffuse-field equalization provides a more distant sound than Grados for example. Diffuse-field assumes that the listening environment includes sound-reflecting walls. Their frequency response graphs when measured with an artificial head approximate those of a pair of loudspeakers in a reverbant room. I think it sounds more natural this way but on the other hand it also sounds less lively and "direct" than others. There's nothing wrong with preferring one approach to the other.

 

[Joey_V]

Veil or not, I feel that the 650 is a DANG good headphone, period.

FWIW, I hear no veil and this is coming from the SA5000. A difference in presentation, yes. A veil covering the highs, no.

 

[donunus]

I found out since i posted this thread that my problem with my 555s is not a veil. its a peak. like a ringing in the upper midrange to lower treble that gives congestion to the overall sound. i don't know, anyway an amp is on its way to check this out if it fixes it. Ill just add 100hrs to the burn in too and give it a chance... If it fails, i will curse sennheiser forever

... what a waste of an otherwise awesome can. maybe ill keep it for the music it does justice to and use a grado for everything else unless the sr225 blows it out of the water ...then ill sell them.

 

[PsychoZX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint.panda The HD 650's subdued treble and rather prominent bass/lower midrange combination can be regarded as dark but with a nice upgrade cable I find it to be just right. Personal preference of course.

Both a Zu Mobius or a Silver Dragon can fix that. My slight preference going to the Zu for having a little bit tighter bass.

What cable do you use with your sens Saint Panda?

 

[PsychoZX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donunus I found out since i posted this thread that my problem with my 555s is not a veil. its a peak. like a ringing in the upper midrange to lower treble that gives congestion to the overall sound. i don't know, anyway an amp is on its way to check this out if it fixes it. Ill just add 100hrs to the burn in too and give it a chance... If it fails, i will curse sennheiser forever ... what a waste of an otherwise awesome can. maybe ill keep it for the music it does justice to and use a grado for everything else unless the sr225 blows it out of the water ...then ill sell them.

What source are you using?

 

[drarthurwells]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint.panda I also think the HD 650 is not the last word in transparency and there is a slight veil but I venture to say that most (not all) of the excessive criticism derives from directly comparing the HD600/650 to brighter and differently equalized headphones (switching back and forth), especially if the brighter headphone is the baseline component. Human hearing works by comparing the current sound to a previously heard sound, which has become the baseline of reference. If you play a totally flat noise (all frequencies equal in amplitude, e.g. pink noise) to a somebody for some time, it will be perceived as flat. However, if you first play a simple tone at 200 Hz for the person and then play the same neutral noise, the noise will be perceived as having a dip at 200 Hz. You will have to be exposed for the noise for some time, until the dip disappears and the noise will be perceived as flat again. Somebody who has been listening to a pair of Sennheiser HD 650 and switches to the AKG K1000 will characterize the AKG as having a thin, overly bright and bass-less sound. Vice versa, the Sennheiser will be described as dark and overly veiled. This is basic psychoacoustics and cannot be circumvented, even if you know it's there. The HD 650's subdued treble and rather prominent bass/lower midrange combination can be regarded as dark but with a nice upgrade cable I find it to be just right. Personal preference of course. Also, the HD 600/650's diffuse-field equalization provides a more distant sound than Grados for example. Diffuse-field assumes that the listening environment includes sound-reflecting walls. Their frequency response graphs when measured with an artificial head approximate those of a pair of loudspeakers in a reverbant room. I think it sounds more natural this way but on the other hand it also sounds less lively and "direct" than others. There's nothing wrong with preferring one approach to the other.

You compare one tone to a previous tone (actually to the memory of that previous tone), where memory is the frame of reference. And yes, the memory of the prior tone does skew the perception of a current tone, as you nicely pointed out. That is why immediate AB testing is totally unreliable except with large differences in the sound. The only reliable AB testing is one week of listening only to A then one week of listening only to B, and so on for several switches. Here you build a large memory base for both A and B and can discriminate between these memory bases with little confusion between them. That is why brief comparisons at a meet are totally worthless when differences are not large.

 

[donunus]

Im using a zen micro portable dap. Shouldn't the 50 ohm 555s sound good with these? they do have enough volume and grado sr60s although not as defined in the bass and soundstage do sound smoother and the upper mids on the grado blow these away on songs that have this problem with the 555s. i use lame extreme mp3s which sound pretty darn good

 

[PsychoZX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donunus Im using a zen micro portable dap. Shouldn't the 50 ohm 555s sound good with these? they do have enough volume and grado sr60s although not as defined in the bass and soundstage do sound smoother and the upper mids on the grado blow these away on songs that have this problem with the 555s. i use lame extreme mp3s which sound pretty darn good

I dunno. The last time I heard the zen micro I really wasn't impressed with the sound quality. I have the same phones exact phones as you in my portable rig and I don't experience the congestion that you speak of. Do you have any other source that you could try the HD-555s out of? It might go a long way in determining if the problem is with the HD-555s or your zen micro.