[forsberg]

All the threads I read in here are too technical when talking about jitter.

...but I just care about the music, so is jitter something that can be heard?

 

[revolink24]

Not with most modern devices, IMHO. There is virtually zero measurable jitter on decent modern digital equipment.

 

[forsberg]

^ then why is there so much discussion on it?

 

[revolink24]

Because there are many people who believe in it (hence the multi thousand dollar USB cables). I'm not one of them. The reason I don't believe in this in modern divices is this. There are a lot of threads already about it, you should check some of them out to decide for yourself.

You might also want to take a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-locked_loop

 

[ROBSCIX]

There are many different kinds of jitter. You cannot hear jitter directly, what you hear is the negative effects it can have on your audio. Distortion, artifacts..etc can all be attributed to jitter. There is alot of misunderstanding and myths surround this and well many other topics in audio!

 

[wuwhere]

You can generate jitter into an audio digital signal and listen to its effect. There are test instruments that can generate jitter and measure it.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBSCIX /img/forum/go_quote.gif There are many different kinds of jitter. You cannot hear jitter directly, what you hear is the negative effects it can have on your audio. Distortion, artifacts..etc can all be attributed to jitter. There is alot of misunderstanding and myths surround this and well many other topics in audio!

Indeed there are many myths in Audio and the most pervasive and insidious is that jitter is an audible problem in day to day audio kit.

To date there have been no credible controlled listening tests to indicate that jitter in the sorts and magnitudes normally encountered is audible in any way.

Experiments to inject jitter have suggested that signal-correlated jitter which is the worst kind is not detectable below 10ns under extreme conditions, such as single high frequency test tones, and in music around about 20ns.

Most commercially available digital devices are at least an order of magnitude better han this. Also when you look at jitter distortion and compare it with THD and IMD for the same device you find that jitter is inevitably at far lower levels than other distortions.

 

[immtbiker]

It's sort of like you going about your normal day, and then ingesting an energy drink, You can mask it, but it is still there. A 40X speed like a Meridian CD Rom Drive helps over compensate it for what it's worth.

 

[wuwhere]

Quote:

Originally Posted by forsberg /img/forum/go_quote.gif ^ then why is there so much discussion on it?

Product marketing.

 

[KingStyles]

I not sure if it heard directly, but I have seen it discussed that it can prevent the fine details of the song coming out and have an affect on transparency. Why are the most detailed and transparent dacs out there the ones that deal with the jitter the best if it dosent have some type of effect on the music?

 

[sk3383]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingStyles /img/forum/go_quote.gif I not sure if it heard directly, but I have seen it discussed that it can prevent the fine details of the song coming out and have an affect on transparency. Why are the most detailed and transparent dacs out there the ones that deal with the jitter the best if it dosent have some type of effect on the music?

Jitter does not prevent fine details from coming out. Jitter can be said to fill in the cracks. Some say that removing all jitter will cause a lack of transparency due to loss of music.

 

[KingStyles]

Quote:

Jitter does not prevent fine details from coming out. Jitter can be said to fill in the cracks. Some say that removing all jitter will cause a lack of transparency due to loss of music.

That a different approach on the subject. Ill have to look into that view.

 

[Currawong]

It's worth hunting for Dan Lavry's posts on the actual affects on the sound of jitter if you want actual info instead of debates about whether it's BS or not. Frankly, everyone here (which would included myself if I was to try) is talking out of their arses on this subject.

 

[leeperry]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sk3383 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Jitter does not prevent fine details from coming out. Jitter can be said to fill in the cracks. Some say that removing all jitter will cause a lack of transparency due to loss of music.

that's something I would agree w/...remove the jitter and the music is gone, as it wasn't recorded/mixed/mastered on 0.1ps gear in the first place anyway

Quote:

Originally Posted by forsberg /img/forum/go_quote.gif What does jitter sound like?

if you repeat "slim.a" 3 times in a row in front of a mirror, you will know!

there used to be dubious samples here, but apparently it's all gone now: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/ji...amples-424172/

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's worth hunting for Dan Lavry's posts on the actual affects on the sound of jitter if you want actual info instead of debates about whether it's BS or not. Frankly, everyone here (which would included myself if I was to try) is talking out of their arses on this subject.

I have a huge respect for Dan Lavry, he is a great debunker of audiophile foolishness and explains stuff nicely, but I have pressed him repeatedly for a straight answer on what the actual thresholds for jitter audibility are and he always fudges, it depends on this and that and he never provides any clear answers.

So while he can very concisely and accurately tell us what jitter is, why we get it and so on he (like most others) is unable to say with any confidence what levels of jitter of what types are actually reliably empirically audible.

I was hoping I might cajole him into running some DBTs with different jitter amounts as I tried with Mr Nugent but he wasnt biting.

So in terms of empirical thresholds we are no better off than we were in 1998

Without an accurate picture of these thresholds we do not know for sure that jitter is **actually** a problem. Much speculation about the sound of jitter exists, much of it contradictory, but unless it is proven that anyone can hear it at such and such a level and that such levels even exist in day to day kit then this is all fluffy stuff.

Hence for now it does not look like a suitable case for treatment..


Here is a 1974 BBC paper on jitter thresholds

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1974-11.pdf