[tlite]

Lots of reviewers/opinions out there here and on the YouTube, etc. say that most DACs these days are pretty good. While there are tonal differences between gear most stuff generally gets decent reviews subject to personal preference or features.

In order to better appreciate what I’ve got (Dragonfly Red and also a iFi ZenDac v2), I legitimately want to try out a crappy DAC… or one that isn’t up to today’s standard.

What do (did?) bad DACs sound like?

 

[ScubaMan2017]

I might be spit-balling here. I'd guess some mediocre DAC chips could be found in desktop PCs. On their motherboards-mainboards. My HP Deskpro 6000 has a stock chip that's good enough for voice.... aaaand that's it.

 

[tlite]

I might be spit-balling here. I'd guess some mediocre DAC chips could be found in desktop PCs. On their motherboards-mainboards. My HP Deskpro 6000 has a stock chip that's good enough for voice.... aaaand that's it.

Got it. So do you think if I run from say… the pc I use at work into a HP amp and then into the headphones I usually use I should hear crappy awfulness that is noticeably worse than a run of the mill ‘good’ DAC?

 

[HiFiHawaii808]

Lots of reviewers/opinions out there here and on the YouTube, etc. say that most DACs these days are pretty good. While there are tonal differences between gear most stuff generally gets decent reviews subject to personal preference or features.

In order to better appreciate what I’ve got (Dragonfly Red and also a iFi ZenDac v2), I legitimately want to try out a crappy DAC… or one that isn’t up to today’s standard.

What do (did?) bad DACs sound like, and what are some examples?

Just plug your IEMs directly into your laptop. Just make sure you have a 3.5mm cable pair with them before you try it.

 

[tesarpa]

I hear differences in spatial qualities (soundstage width and depth), in instrument separation and namely how instruments are rendered. There is big difference in well defined (articulated) acoustic bass vs. smeared one. I usually can't tell the DAC is bad until I compare it to another one (A/B). Even output from my DVB/T receiver is listenable, just until I switch to my Yggdrasil

 

[iFi audio]

What do (did?) bad DACs sound like, and what are some examples?

Although I won't post any examples, many folks would agree that a bad DAC would sound anemic, hollow and matte that would result in that artificial tint and dryness some of us are sensitive to.

 

[tlite]

Although I won't post any examples, many folks would agree that a bad DAC would sound anemic, hollow and matte that would result in that artificial tint and dryness some of us are sensitive to.

Good point- I shouldn't have asked for examples- don't want to bash anything- I'll edit previous post.

 

[iFi audio]

Good point- I shouldn't have asked for examples- don't want to bash anything- I'll edit previous post.

It's OK, some folks will probably post impressions of products that didn't work for them for various reasons. It's OK if one doesn't like this or that product and is vocal about it in a way that explains what didn't do the trick

 

[baskingshark]

Lots of reviewers/opinions out there here and on the YouTube, etc. say that most DACs these days are pretty good. While there are tonal differences between gear most stuff generally gets decent reviews subject to personal preference or features.

In order to better appreciate what I’ve got (Dragonfly Red and also a iFi ZenDac v2), I legitimately want to try out a crappy DAC… or one that isn’t up to today’s standard.

What do (did?) bad DACs sound like?

Well some desktops and cheap phones have sub-optimally implemented DACs. On a bad DAC, one can hear bad hissing, or roll off in the bass/treble. Some have weak dynamics.

 

[sajunky]

I got Topping D30. No treble roll off, but inferior parts in various places compared to the reviewed unit and presumably fake opamps, as a Realtek codec chip in Sony Vaio laptop sounds better.

 

[Deleeh]

Hello,
It's not always easy to answer.
Firstly, today's dacs are quite better than before, but sometimes they are similar, which again is rather subjective.
Although the implementation can be different, other ways lead to a similar sound experience.
Certainly, one always tries to do something new differently than the manufacturer or even to set a trend, such as offering sound filters or maximum bit depth and sampling rate.
In the end, it is the implementation that counts and whether the 1 by 1 rules of electrical engineering have been observed, such as power supply, power supply units, noise floor and so on.

The last part is your own listening preferences.
While you love your Dac, for others it can be a love-hate relationship.
Or a clear no, I don't like it at all.
Certainly a bit of pairing of a combination plays a role too.
While you are flexible and can create a symbiosis with a dac and a separate headphone amp, a dac/amp may not be able to keep up for typical reasons like cost factor.
This is certainly one of the main reasons why dac/amps do not always perform better than separate combinations.

In the end, it's the ear that decides and then the head, and perhaps the features of the dac.

 

[paulrbarnard]

Nice to see this bumped as I didn't see it before. In my office I have a nice sounding active speaker which takes a line out from my computer. I've been using it like that for years. Keep upgrading the computer but keep the same speakers as they work well.
I have been through a few headphone DAC/Amps over the years and have a Fiio Q5s which just doesn't cut it for me. On a whim a few weeks ago I plugged it into my computer and plugged the speakers into the line out to see if it was the DAC or the AMP of the q5s I didn't like. I was astounded by the improvement in sound from my speakers. The bass is richer and the whole sound much more alive. I no longer hear the speakers and the sound is just enveloping. My conclusion was that the DAC in the Q5s is way better than the DAC in the MacPro, and by inference that it is the AMP in the Fiio that I was not happy with.
So doing a comparison with a computer in built DAC will almost certainly give you a bad case baseline to compare against. I hadn't previously thought the DAC had such a significant impact. Perhaps it doesn't when comparing dedicated DAC but between dedicated and generic low cost it is very noticeable.

 

[iFi audio]

I hadn't previously thought the DAC had such a significant impact.

DACs matter a lot because what they make later on gets amplified and can't be fixed. This means that a subpar DAC will bottleneck every amp and headphones/speakers that come after it, no matter how good they are.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I like the thread title. But really more than a bad DAC, I would also wonder what a medium DAC sounds like.

That said, I look at whole systems instead of just the DAC. Meaning at times stuff is actually pretty good with one set of headphones and not so great with another. That’s how synergy works, it can make medium stuff good, and synergy can make great stuff phenomenal.

I tend to look at the Apple Dongle as a medium level DAC. It doesn’t have all the damping for full-size headphones, but does pretty good with many IEMs.

It’s interesting too as DACs in general get their rating many times subjectively. That means for many they feel the Apple Dongle is actually end game and it can’t be improved upon!

But some laptop 3.5mm outputs are at times pretty good. Still the worst of DACs offer an assortment of noise, lacking a truly black background, lesser soundstage and strange levels of uneven frequency response. At times with certain headphones it’s not so bad but really it still is. Still these really good DACs also dial in the timbre, so stuff just sounds real!

Interesting enough the better DACs will start to change the sound to a wider soundstage but will also start to even seem like adding artifacts. What I’m trying to say is at times some DACs will appear to have personality....... good personality. Where the Apple Dongle starts to seem like a reference.

Still what I’m looking for from a DAC is involvement and a style of musicality which seems to work with all genres? To me every DAC is different, some a lot, and some just a little. In Sound Science we are going back and forth if DACs really bestow a character onto your signal. The amplifier stage to the line out of the DAC seems to add a character to me.

 

[whitedragem]

More so ‘what does a poor DAC circuit’ equate to;
and
define ‘bad’? (rhetoric)

The second part, ‘define ‘bad’’, is easy to answer; it simply becomes whatever is less than you have heard, up to present, that sounds ‘better’.

DAC circuit is important to define.
The CS4398 inside a Questyle QP1R sounds distictly different to the CS4398 as implemented in a Creative E5
and (second example)
the Sabre 9018 implementation between a Sony PHA3 (portable DAC/amp) sounds very different to the Burson Virtuoso V2+ (home pre/DAC/amp)....


Having grown up with some world class DACs, and having survived the 80s and 90s digital era (anyone remember 4 second ‘buffers’ on personal CD players/‘discmans’? how about the ‘10 second buffer’ versions? mmmmmm ‘sound quality’!; but was awesome driving off from lights and watching the discman nosedive from the dashboard and ‘never miss a beat’)..

Sadly this is too hard a question to field due to the many lines dividing the sand associated.
DACs need good transports to feed them right, and most people haven’t heard such a combo.
When we have no benchmark (pun intended) as to what sounds ‘great’, how can we tell what sounds bad.

Most people love the huge tap/digital filter on Chord DACs (elimitating pre ringing and sounding ‘very natural’ to musicians)...
I love the GTO filter on iFi DACs (when feeding ’lowly’ 44khz)..
A ladder DAC, like an entry level denafrips, sounds great like some nice Parasound parts (or a highly modified DENON DCD-S10) that used to be the ‘gold standard‘ of midfi/consumer ‘hi end’.
Nowadays it is RIDICULOUS the price points needed to get a baseline ‘nice sound’.
2 channel audio is a thing owned by yesteryear (pre early nineties market move to ‘surround sound’), and has been a twenty year downward spiral that just looks like flushing money down the loo to anyone ‘chasing their audio tail’ in the modern world.

I’ve heard a lot of ‘bad DACs’ (mostly every DAC I have heard in the last ten years), as they kill musicality vs ‘nice’ parts.
but the ear training and parts experience required to ‘see’ the ‘subtle differences’ is beyond what the majority will ever know.

Quite a few head-fiers will know the differences, but they are so hard to qualify when the language gets flowery and can be reduced to semantics easily- the people who do not understand the differences will relegate them to ‘so subtle’ as to ‘why even care’; where of course everyone who has invested the time and effort to test and upgrade will have much weighing on their ‘value’ proposition to bias or ‘confirm’ just how much of a step up they have bought.

Right now I am listening to the most budget DAC I would care to ‘really listen too’.
It sounds phenominal- and that is the thing- all DACs sound relatively great vs most eighties digital (notice the word ‘most’).
Spec sheets suggest the audio is improving (the measurements certain are), but the reality is the last twenty years has been a race to nowhere special. (Hi Res/MQA/balanced/bluetooth codecs and Dolby Atmos...) with the exception of some Dolby Atmos setups and wireless audio being ‘cool’ nothing to ‘write home about’.
What we have gone through is the burying of ‘actually good sound’ (eg HDCD encoding/class ‘A’ amplification etc).

the organic sound coming from my twenty year old (and even a couple of thirty year old) DACs generally surpass modern ‘junk fi’.
To own a setup good enough to appreciate the subtle differences is unusual in the modern world.
That being said, some fourty year old ‘bookshelf’ speakers I bought for my child for their 14th birthday, still hugely outpuch some $3k price point ‘modern towers’.
Sure, my child has developed ‘golden ears’ through much exposure to high end kit.
It takes them about thirty seconds to lean in favour of one DAC over another. (and two minutes to further qualify findings)
Watching their youthful mind tackle concepts between what two ‘identical looking boxes’ might bring to sound is exceptional.
Without schooling them of ‘any tricks’; they know to build a playlist of SUPER FAMILIAR TEST TRACKS, featuring macrodynamics/microdynamics, female vocals, male vocals, and some ‘difficult genres’ to get right.
(last time the list included Tori Amos, Neil Finn (Crowded House), Tool and Nine Inch Nails, and one or two other artists; but got as far as Tool/NIN and resolutely BOUGHT THE MEZE99s)

Will two DACs sound dramatically different playing back ‘test tones’. Probably not.
Will complex genres with hundreds of musicians in rows in echoey recording chambers sound different across several DACs? Yep!

When I have assembled listening panels (for blind A/B testing where I do a lot of legwork) the composers/conductors/musicians seem to describe instrument tonality or the ‘row’ of the hall the playback seems to be placed in. They can do this easily and will help me configure the polarity on the DAC (‘can’t you hear the improved ATTACK on the violins?’), a setting my ears can barely figure out...
Ear training is 9/10ths of this battle, and then familiarity with a tonne of kit.
If we do not bother to educate ourselves to ‘see’ the differences, and invest no time in comparisons, then we can simply get on with enjoying ‘the music’.
... needless to say a ‘good DAC’ will put a smile on a persons face and have their toe tapping as music reproduction hits heights previously unknown.

Whilst I make out this stuff is subtle, it is the night/day difference between making the grade or not.

Getting the circuit right is more important than the DAC chip part (or at least, chain is as good as ‘weakest link’), and the Sabre 9018 backed by clean class A amplification and nice digital volume implementation in the Burson Virtuoso V2+ (and legendary Burson OPAMPS wink.gif); make that playback special enough to WANT to hear it more often. SOMETIMES I even choose the older Burson DAC over my present DAC purchase.

The DAC in my 20 year old preamp is ‘good’ and vastly more musical (whole circuit) than any sub $1000 kit I have experienced (aus dollars). I have tested a LOT of DACs.

The conductor friend has aired their thoughts to me about the need for ‘modern youth’ to experience opera and ‘concert halls’.
Back when I was a teenager, and renting CDs was banned in my country, I had to sign up for the ‘classical music appreciation society’ in order to ‘borrow’ world music and ‘much’ from their extended catalogue.
I didn’t get too far down the classical music rabbit hole; my co joining friend started to share with me their favorite conductors or orchestras (or recordings in general) doing a certain movement/piece of orchestral music...
As youthful teenagers we would drink beer on a Friday night and listen to classical music fed through the best CD player (DAC) we could afford- (the rest of the setup being beyond reference class/thankyou second hand ‘bargains’)
The amplifier being some behemoth from the 70s that had five power supplies, and output flat frequency responce from DC (0hz) to 500,000khz with a 500’mu’seconds slew rate (totally over engineered to be the ‘best’), fed into incredible speakers ‘built by a professional speaker maker’ for THEIR BEST MATES WEDDING. (which I netted from my best mates divorce). The speakers featured midrange drivers worth $1500 a pop and gave a sound I have seldom heard elsewhere. Fair to say ‘the subtle differences in playback was instantly recognised’.

From those ‘humble hifi origins’ (after ten years of reconfiguring my stereo/quad channel space near monthly) I was STARTING TO LEARN ’how to audition‘ equipment.
I listened to Nine Inch Nails as it gave my system a workout even more than most classical/ochestral stuff.
More than happy to ‘wake up‘ some Acoustic Reseach LSTs with some Prodigy (Fat of the Land) (speakers from the fifties that could handle 1000watts ‘back in tube days’).

A sunfire 2700watt subwoofer presently allows me to have some ‘true’ bass note reproduction, and if I didn’t have the respective setups (2channel/surround/head-fi) I wouldn’t have the gammut to ‘fully test’ equipment..
I am no stranger to hooking up twenty plus year old kit (today) and shuffling around equipment to create synergy. Again, practice and training.

Whilst my talking smack about modern kit might sound like I speak from a position of ‘wank’, but it crazy the minimum pricepoints I have to spend to to buy stuff that actually makes a MINIMUM audio grade.

which comes back to the DAC I am listening to right now... most say it costs stupid money and offers little over the entry level part on offer by the same company.
the ‘value proposition’ is poor. If a DAC 1/5th the cost outputs sound, and this one ‘outputs sound’, then surely five people getting the entry level part is going to be a bigger sound upgrade ? (yes)
But I cannot be in five places at once, and my ear training cannot be ‘unlearned’. I would find the 1/5th the pricepoint part ‘unlistenable’ (hence has NO VALUE) to me.

Would the difference be as obvious/overt as changing between two sets of headphones? No.
Would the difference between most entry level DACs be equivalent to drilling a hole in a closed back headphone? yes! Some would notice the sound difference, certainly more so with ‘some genres’.

Do DACs make good upgrade prospects in terms of value for money? yes, but only ‘entry level ones’.
Sadly the ones that sound good and cost ‘reasonable’ coin, are hard to justify to ‘non believers’.

Wrapping cheap USB cables around a DAC can help the sound quality. Not sure if it is the added shielding or the fact that taking the cheap USB cable off the DAC and swapping it to a decently built part that measures to ‘spec’ aids proper transmission of digital audio.

Bonus game: one sentence above may have been written to jolt the basket of snakes with a hot prod. (ready for personal attacks against the ‘entitled‘ douche (me)).
For the record I had setup three businesses by the age of sixteen and worked ‘very hard’ on weekends washing neighbourhood cars etc.
My early hifi kit still served me three + decades later, so I see value in the investment, and do not feel that my education came ‘cheaply’.