[Yuurei]

So, if I understood correctly everything that was written in this thread is the following video is not some voodoo magic? (the interesting part starts at about 0:50sec):

 

[bigshot]

I have AirPods pro, so I will try this, but I am very skeptical. When are they releasing this?

 

[bigshot]

you call millions of audiophiles “audiofools” because they claim they can hear soundstage with headphones.

No, I say that they just don't know what soundstage is, because they have never really experienced it. There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. Ignorance is fine. As Mark Twain said, "We are all ignorant... just on different subjects." Stupidity is willful ignorance... the facts are explained to you and you stubbornly refuse to accept them. That is the root of audiophoolery.

I think it's pretty much self evident that speakers present a more dimensional soundstage and headphones present sound down a line through the center of your head. I don't think we're arguing that. We're just arguing the definition of the word soundstage. I am using it in the way that the text I quoted before is defining it.

 

[castleofargh]

So, if I understood correctly everything that was written in this thread is the following video is not some voodoo magic? (the interesting part starts at about 0:50sec):

They make no mention of HRTF customization. I am guessing that they might use the distance between the earphones and leave it at that. Perhaps they could also let people take pics of their ears? but, that still seems like a long shot in term of coming close to our personal HRTF.

Well, better something than nothing. At least things keep moving in the right direction.

 

[KeithPhantom]

I have AirPods pro, so I will try this, but I am very skeptical. When are they releasing this?

I also have Airpods Pro (well, only one side since I don't find the other one that is in my room, just lost it a few days ago), and I will try this if so innovative.

 

[gregorio]

So, if I understood correctly everything that was written in this thread is the following video is not some voodoo magic?

No, because to be honest, I don't think you have "understood everything that was written in the thread". What has been written in this thread is the assertion that headphones "have" or "create" soundstage and refutations of that assertion; that soundstage is created by and only exists inside listeners' brains, as a result of a perceptual illusion based on spatial cues in the recording itself AND added by the listening environment (in the case of mixes intended for 2 channel stereo speaker reproduction) which are obviously missing in headphone reproduction. There was then discussion of exceptions, for example binaural recordings (for some people) that are specifically intended for headphone reproduction WITHOUT the addition of listening environment acoustics/spatial cues and, some modern technology (such as the A16), which applies a HRTF and simulated listening environment acoustics to standard stereo mixes. However, almost everyone on the other Head-Fi subforums (and elsewhere), reviews or discusses the soundstage that headphones "have" or "create" with reference to standard stereo commercial music recordings, NOT binaural recordings or with the addition of technology such as the A16.

Therefore, what has been written in this thread does not conflict with the video, for two reasons:

1. The "Spatial Audio" feature isn't in reference to standard stereo recordings, at the end of the video it states it works with surround sound formats, 5.1, 7.1 or Dolby Atmos (not standard stereo), which of course already contain spatial audio (soundfield) cues. In effect then, this "Spatial Audio" feature isn't "creating" spatial audio (a soundfield) it's just converting the spatial audio cues already in the recording from one format to another, EG. From 5.1 to binaural. Head-tracking will certainly help but as @castleofargh states, without personalised HRTFs, it's going to be a bit "hit or miss" how well it works for different people. Having said all this, it maybe possible in the future to create a SoC that's small enough to put inside headphones (or even IEMs), that incorporates all the processing of say the A16, IE. Can simulate a soundstage illusion with standard stereo recordings when using headphones. Even if this is the case we run into the second reason though:

2. This "reason" is effectively the same as the issue with "digital speakers" (and digital microphones), IE. A nomenclature issue. In reality, there's no such thing as a digital speaker, all speakers are fundamentally analogue/acoustic devices, they cannot be digital. What we actually mean (whether we know it or not) when we say "a digital speaker" is "an analogue/acoustic speaker" but with a DAC located in the speaker's cabinet/enclosure (and therefore a digital input to the speaker cabinet). One could argue that the term "speaker" includes the cabinet and not just the driver itself but then of course, the purpose of a speaker cabinet/enclosure, in addition to visual appeal and practicality of "mounting", is to affect the driver's output in the acoustic (not digital) domain. It's effectively the same issue with this "Spatial Audio" feature, it's not the headphone/IEM itself, it's DSP that's located in the IEM housing (but of course it doesn't have to be, unlike the actual driver).

G

 

[bigshot]

I lost one of mine and by the time I realized it, it was out of power and couldn't do the squeal alert any more. I have no idea where it is. Had to buy a new one.

 

[Davesrose]

I have noticed that some of the most recent headphone 3D audio formats do have you take photos of your pinnae for them to try to model a better HRTF. My Sony wireless headphones, for example, got an upgrade for this....but the format is only for some paid subscriptions. When I have listened to the demo after going through the setup, it stil hasn't sounded like a seamless 3D audio field that has a clear frontal field like a proper speaker setup has. In recent pages, it seems there is arguments about what "soundstage" is in regards to headphones. I don't think it's such a clear term, like imaging. For example, there are also different sources that give different frequency ranges for what is in bass, midtone, and treble regions. For me, what I've found about certain headphones with standard stereo is that some have sound going further out in space...what I equate to "soundstage" with headphones (the best systems I've heard with stereo headphones with imaging is that sound can get projected on my forehead vs just being in my head). I have heard good surround DSPs through headphones that give rear surround sound effects when listening to a movie: but my current Atmos/DTS-X speaker setup is much better with frontal and overhead positional audio (all being seamless, where current best headphone audio I've heard doesn't have as good a frontal image or full seamless audio).

 

[bigshot]

Yeah. It's like radiating heat sort of... the sound radiates around the line through your ears. But that isn't at all the same as speaker soundstage. Speakers radiate too. Soundstage width can be a little wider if your speakers have wide dispersion. Horn loaded speakers tend to shoot out the sound in a straight line towards you. But both of those are capable of creating a vivid and defined soundstage that sounds like it is a considerable distance in front of you. Secondary distance cues can make the distance seem even further than the physical distance.

Does your Atmos system make it possible to project sound objects into the room itself, instead of hugging the walls like normal 5.1?

 

[castleofargh]

I have noticed that some of the most recent headphone 3D audio formats do have you take photos of your pinnae for them to try to model a better HRTF. My Sony wireless headphones, for example, got an upgrade for this....but the format is only for some paid subscriptions. When I have listened to the demo after going through the setup, it stil hasn't sounded like a seamless 3D audio field that has a clear frontal field like a proper speaker setup has. In recent pages, it seems there is arguments about what "soundstage" is in regards to headphones. I don't think it's such a clear term, like imaging. For example, there are also different sources that give different frequency ranges for what is in bass, midtone, and treble regions. For me, what I've found about certain headphones with standard stereo is that some have sound going further out in space...what I equate to "soundstage" with headphones (the best systems I've heard with stereo headphones with imaging is that sound can get projected on my forehead vs just being in my head). I have heard good surround DSPs through headphones that give rear surround sound effects when listening to a movie: but my current Atmos/DTS-X speaker setup is much better with frontal and overhead positional audio (all being seamless, where current best headphone audio I've heard doesn't have as good a frontal image or full seamless audio).

The fact that the most convincing 3D systems for headphones are speaker simulation(virtual speakers or object based), should tell enough of how realistic and consistent the usual headphone "stage" and imaging really are on their own with your typical music or movies.
I can tell you that I'm very much fooled by the A16, and it's still a perfectible approximation: most people will only measure a very limited number of look angles so everything in between is extrapolated instead of measured. For now there is no vertical axis(I honestly don't notice, but someone else might find it enough to "break the spell").
Only the linear response at a given loudness is measured so it won't really sound exactly like the speaker system measured(in some ways it can sound better, but that's another conversation) the measurements aren't done with high end mics calibrated with love.
Plus of course the headphone used is our own choice and may add its own distortions or oppose some EQ which would be having unknown consequences on our impressions.

Also in practice, what you look at can impact what you'll hear. So a complete audio simulation should IMO come in the form of an audio and visual simulation(even if that simulation is just a bunch of fake speakers placed in the room or some VR googles showing a room with the right size).


My lost point was that as Greg said, a binaural system has obviously the ability to approximate normal human hearing conditions, because normal human hearing is binaural^_^. But the processes to arrive at something similar with headphone is a tad complicated and we may need more than just the right sound for our ears. At least I do. Some people report great results from simulation without head tracking or anything special to look at. I'm not that lucky. the best I could achieve was a feeling of sound about a meter away from me all around, but only if I kept my head totally still. any movement and some stuff started to collapse back onto or into my head. I have reason to believe(discussions with others) that not everybody is like that. Once again, that damn subjectivity kicks in and what is needed for outstanding 3D simulation on headphones might need to be "à la carte".

 

[bigshot]

Do you think shooting a photo of your ear is enough to calibrate with?

 

[castleofargh]

Do you think shooting a photo of your ear is enough to calibrate with?

Objectively, no. it's more of a shortcut. But as a great deal of the direction cues come from the influence of the outer ear, it's a clever way to get many things less wrong without much effort(compared to actually having the listener measure stuff at his ears).

 

[sander99]

Do you think shooting a photo of your ear is enough to calibrate with?

Probably a bit better from a video (including the complete head and shoulders), like described below, no idea how good or bad this works at the moment.
In theory this has one advantage over measuring with microphones in the ear I think: because with the latter you always have the problems of how to exactly position the microphones, and how does the presence of the microphones and the cables influence the results?

From https://www.genelec.com/aural-id :

How does it work?

After you upload a 360 degree video of your head and shoulder region from your mobile phone camera, Aural ID builds an accurate and detailed 3D model scaled to exactly the correct dimensions of your head and upper torso. From this, your personal HRTF is formed and delivered to you as an internationally recognised SOFA file format, which supports 44.1, 48 and 96 kHz sample rates and contains data for both ears in 836 different orientations.


Who is it for?

Anyone using headphones for stereo, surround and immersive audio monitoring. Whether you are active in music recording, post production, academic research, VR or games development, Aural ID will elevate your headphone listening experience to a whole new level of realism.


For more in-depth information, view the Aural ID User Manual.


Pricing

The price of your personal Aural ID is 500 € + VAT.

 

[Davesrose]

Does your Atmos system make it possible to project sound objects into the room itself, instead of hugging the walls like normal 5.1?

I do get a sense of depth: on occasion I have gotten up and checked to see if it was really raining outside or if it was part of the track. Some ambient noises have sounded closer to my recliner. It could also be visual cues from my display, that I've heard sounds go from the rear to below my head to front of me (beginning of Blade Runner, for example, has a spinner move in such a fashion). I've also been surprised at how well Dolby Surround or DTS:Neural works at projecting overhead sound from conventional 5.1/7.1 tracks. First time I noticed was a movie in which helicopter blades were completely overhead. Also true for Master and Commander, when the scene is below deck and you hear sounds above deck. But when it comes to comparing that vs an older movie where the audio has been remixed to Atmos/DTS:X, one generality is that audio might be more seamless (all things considered as it really depends on the techniques used for mixing). Every once in awhile, it's also obvious that they reworked the track to have more surround sounds. One example is Apollo 13, where you get a strong sense of being in an office environment when they're arguing about who's going on the mission. It does sound like there's offices behind you with busy typewriters going.

 

[bigshot]

That sounds neat. I'd love to hear what it can do with a good music mix. Especially something like opera where soundstage can add so much to the enjoyment. I can imagine characters blocked so they're walking around the room.