Westone ES3X Appreciation Thread
Apr 3, 2009 at 6:03 PM Post #481 of 1,871
Quote:

Originally Posted by vkvedam /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Hi Larry [AKA HeadphoneAddict]
Interesting comparison you've got there among Apple's line up. Just a quick question.
Can you share the subtle differences in between iPhone 3G LOD and iMod 5.5G LOD using
something like P-51? Not with V-Cap dock though. Just based on LOD--->Amp.
Cheers

Sorry to be a little off topic.



I have only tried an amp with the iPhone and LOD a couple of times. I'll try to get around to comparing the iPhone and iMod as the source with P-51 and using similar (or same) LOD with each. I can't promised when.
 
Apr 3, 2009 at 6:05 PM Post #482 of 1,871
Quote:

Originally Posted by davidhunternyc /img/forum/go_quote.gif
It is so great reading that several people here are completely happy with their iPod and ES3X, without the need or desire to upgrade. So many people have spent endless amounts of money on audio equipment so to find such a simple combination of equipment that doesn't break the bank, while at the same time finding audio bliss, is truly special indeed. With the concern of audio equipment out of the way, all that is left is just to sit back and enjoy the music... well, except for one more little question, the HD800.


The point being, the ES3X are very enjoyable with mid-fi sources like an iPhone 3G in my case. But the better the source and amp the better the ES3X will perform - they ES3X will not hold back your source and amp, or act like a bottleneck.
 
Apr 3, 2009 at 6:37 PM Post #483 of 1,871
One problem I think that happens with a lot of people is that they expect MASSIVE differences in sound from one product to another. Take a person on the street and play an 128 kb/s mp3 from a mediocre dap and run that signal through headphone A and do the same but this time run a signal from a vinyl rig through headphone A and a good amount of people won't hear a difference. The reason? They aren't listening to the music. They are hearing sounds no doubt, but they aren't really listening.

I had a friend come over once many years ago with his Sony V600s and he tried my RS-1's, AB'ing the two. His response? They sound the same. Beyond me thinking he's daft and deaf, I started to think about how he actually listens. He cranks the music to ear bleeding levels and wants thumping bass and well, that's about it.

No ideas about nuance, space, air, dynamics etc.

When using something as sensitive as the ES3X's, one expects that they should be easily driven by just about anything. 120 db efficient? Or more? Come on, rubbing your feet on the carpet should generate enough juice to make one deaf! However, there is more to the sound and that comes in the smaller bits. Blacker backgrounds for instance. My 2G Nano is awful with noise, my Macbook Pro is even worse (amp/dac on its way though!). Throwing in a better source and/or amp makes it so that more is revealed. The better the source (in terms of detail retrieval, natural presentation etc) the better the sound coming from the ES3X's. That said, there is no reason that something as simple as an FM tuner and the ES3X's can't be absolutely sublime. In fact, one should be cheering this on! It means it is a whole lot easier to enjoy the music without futzing around with ancillary components. R10's, GS-1000's, HE90's...they all need complicated setups to sound their best, in fact, some would say to sound good at all. The ES3X's? Nope! Their incredible efficiency enables even the meekest amp to get the job done leaving the real leveraging up to the source. Ultimately even with the source there will be diminishing returns, but think about how wonderful it is that one can practically forgo an amp and just concentrate on upgrading the source!

The trick I suppose would be in trying to stop believing the ES3X's or any top IEM are mainly portable doohickies and start thinking about them as high end transducers.

What are the Cons of an IEM?

Isolation. This is also a pro however.
Miniscule headstage and small soundstage
Lack of body crunching bass
Limited to one listener (again this could be a pro)

What are the pros?

Relatively cheap.
Likely the best detail in all of audio.
No room interference.
Easily driven.
Awesome sound anytime anywhere.

There are certainly more in both categories, but the cons I simply can't see growing too much longer in that list. Whereas there are plenty more pros.

High end speakers break the bank, no doubt. They also require excellent rooms, excellent amps, preamps, sources, cables and power regulating/cleaning products. The do permit multiple people to listen at once which is a major plus and they also recreate a very realistic live experience, but their short falls are many and when searching for the absolute sound, it becomes difficult to top out with speakers.

High-end full-sized headphones reduce some of the problems that speakers have but introduce others like limiting the folks who can listen, realistic sound levels, chest thumping bass etc. They also require far more gear to sound their best, sometimes on the same level as speakers! (but thankfully at a lesser price most often).

High-end IEMs reduce those limitations even further while introducing some top tier levels of their own, likely unapproachable by any other form of transducer. But, in each category, the better the source, the better the sound. Yet, it sure is incredible that even straight from a DAP, one can enjoy very high level sound in such a minimal package. DAP + Transducer? That's it? SWEET! If only we had access to a portable DAP, dead silent, natural sound, massive capacity able to decode any codec. Then! We could really talk about top tier sound on the go, but for now, we are at least in the upper mid-fi level with something like a good sounding DAP + ES3X or another IEM on the same level. How difficult would it be to achieve this for the same money using different tech? I'd wager nearly impossible.
 
Apr 3, 2009 at 7:40 PM Post #484 of 1,871
Yea, I guess many people have delusional expectations. I don't have ES3X but when I look at the 1/8" output hole of my W3 and consider the massive soundstage, bass and dynamics it is downright astonishing! An engineering marvel!
 
Apr 3, 2009 at 9:47 PM Post #485 of 1,871
I've been using my new ES3X for the past few days and am ready to post my feedback. Please be aware that I'm a newbie and this is my first pair of IEM...

I'd like to thank Zanth for the great post and explaining the pros/cons of IEMs in a simple way. Thanks!

I am a professional club dj and have been working with regular DJ phones for years now, Sony V700DJ, Sennheiser HD280 Pro, and most recently Ultrasone DJ1Pro. So far the DJ1Pro have been my favorite.

I decided to safeguard my hearing and move to IEMs but have been caught of guard with the lack of bass in comparison to any regular DJ cans. Last night I tried to mix using the ES3x and can say that highs and mids are really incredible but bass is nonexistent. I do DJ mostly house/electronic music and was wondering if anybody else in this thread could give me their opinion. I tested the ES3X with ipod 5.5G and with new MacBook Pro and with DJM 600 and DJM 800 Pioneer DJ mixers. On they DJ mixers the ES3x sounded better but still very little bass.

Following HeadphoneAddict suggestion, i bought the Shure volume attenuator to remove some of the hiss that the DJ mixer gave but SQ is pretty much the same.

I think that a headphone amp is probably the next step as per HeadphoneAddict suggestion, but will this improve the bass?

Thanks for hearing me out and thanks to all for the invaluable info I have learned on this thread.

Julian
 
Apr 3, 2009 at 9:49 PM Post #486 of 1,871
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif
High-end IEMs reduce those limitations even further while introducing some top tier levels of their own, likely unapproachable by any other form of transducer. But, in each category, the better the source, the better the sound. Yet, it sure is incredible that even straight from a DAP, one can enjoy very high level sound in such a minimal package. DAP + Transducer? That's it? SWEET! If only we had access to a portable DAP, dead silent, natural sound, massive capacity able to decode any codec. Then! We could really talk about top tier sound on the go, but for now, we are at least in the upper mid-fi level with something like a good sounding DAP + ES3X or another IEM on the same level. How difficult would it be to achieve this for the same money using different tech? I'd wager nearly impossible.


Yes, I would concur that we are at least at the upper level of mid-fi with just an iPod and a reference IEM such as the ES3X. How nice is it too that this package is so efficient and minimal? Better than an external DAP would be a high-end DAP in the the iPod (a topic beaten to death on this forum). Until it happens though, we are just talking to the wind. One thing's for sure, gone are the days of the Sony Walkman. R.I.P.
 
Apr 3, 2009 at 10:04 PM Post #487 of 1,871
Quote:

Originally Posted by davidhunternyc /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Yes, I would concur that we are at least at the upper level of mid-fi with just an iPod and a reference IEM such as the ES3X. How nice is it too that this package is so efficient and minimal? Better than an external DAP would be a high-end DAP in the the iPod (a topic beaten to death on this forum). Until it happens though, we are just talking to the wind. One thing's for sure, gone are the days of the Sony Walkman. R.I.P.


frown.gif



X-series, GO!
 
Apr 3, 2009 at 11:02 PM Post #489 of 1,871
The bad:
The balance of left/right sound reproduction is, er, unbalanced, ie more sound coming from the right earpiece (ep) than the left one.

The excitement of a great new product, the great SQ coupled with the prospect of sending ES3X back to Westone... well, I wanted to wait and see if there really was a problem or not -- I noticed the lower end of the left ep sticks out about half a centimetre (0.5mm) and, though not uncomfortable, the ep doesn't quite snap into place as it should like the right one does. I compared my other headphones & IEMs and there definitely is an imbalance, not massive but clearly there.

The Good:
Spoke to someone from Westone, who explained that this sometimes happens and that it was nothing to do with my left ear impression but a fault from their end. So, they'll be covering the cost for FedEx 48-hr Express delivery both ways.

Westone's CS is absolutely superb. The person I spoke to was very reassuring, friendly, and professional - he asked several questions and answered all of mine thoroughly, never rushing or trying to convince me of anything.
 
Apr 3, 2009 at 11:50 PM Post #490 of 1,871
Quote:

Originally Posted by jolla /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I've been using my new ES3X for the past few days and am ready to post my feedback. Please be aware that I'm a newbie and this is my first pair of IEM...

I'd like to thank Zanth for the great post and explaining the pros/cons of IEMs in a simple way. Thanks!

I am a professional club dj and have been working with regular DJ phones for years now, Sony V700DJ, Sennheiser HD280 Pro, and most recently Ultrasone DJ1Pro. So far the DJ1Pro have been my favorite.

I decided to safeguard my hearing and move to IEMs but have been caught of guard with the lack of bass in comparison to any regular DJ cans. Last night I tried to mix using the ES3x and can say that highs and mids are really incredible but bass is nonexistent. I do DJ mostly house/electronic music and was wondering if anybody else in this thread could give me their opinion. I tested the ES3X with ipod 5.5G and with new MacBook Pro and with DJM 600 and DJM 800 Pioneer DJ mixers. On they DJ mixers the ES3x sounded better but still very little bass.

Following HeadphoneAddict suggestion, i bought the Shure volume attenuator to remove some of the hiss that the DJ mixer gave but SQ is pretty much the same.

I think that a headphone amp is probably the next step as per HeadphoneAddict suggestion, but will this improve the bass?

Thanks for hearing me out and thanks to all for the invaluable info I have learned on this thread.

Julian



You likely don't have a good seal. You may need a refit and unless Westone changed their policy over the last few years the first refit is free, and possibly more on top of that depending on how much you complain. Also since this is your first IEM, there is a good chance that you're not inserting it properly, or deep enough. With customs there's only one way to wear them right and you will feel a sort of "snapping into place" sensation when the fit is right, like a piece fitting properly into a jigsaw puzzle. Provided the fit is right in the first place.

Missing bass in an IEM is a very good symptom of a bad seal. You can even get good isolation and still have a bad seal and get little bass. Other symptoms are tonal problems, and sibilance/metallic character in the highs.

It could also be an issue of expectations and being used to bloated V700-style bass, but then again the HD280 Pro had pretty much no bass in my experience, and the ES3x should best it easily in the bass department. The ES2 did by miles, and in general had very considerable amounts of bass though it was well-controlled and properly integrated into the rest of the frequency range.

So, check your seal, play around with fit, and possibly go in for a refit. Also talk to Westone, they know their stuff.

Getting multiple refits with custom IEMs is not uncommon. Westone is better than average when it comes to fit but even they can't be perfect on the first try every time.
 
Apr 4, 2009 at 12:15 AM Post #491 of 1,871
Quote:

Originally Posted by jolla /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I've been using my new ES3X for the past few days and am ready to post my feedback. Please be aware that I'm a newbie and this is my first pair of IEM...

I'd like to thank Zanth for the great post and explaining the pros/cons of IEMs in a simple way. Thanks!

I am a professional club dj and have been working with regular DJ phones for years now, Sony V700DJ, Sennheiser HD280 Pro, and most recently Ultrasone DJ1Pro. So far the DJ1Pro have been my favorite.

I decided to safeguard my hearing and move to IEMs but have been caught of guard with the lack of bass in comparison to any regular DJ cans. Last night I tried to mix using the ES3x and can say that highs and mids are really incredible but bass is nonexistent. I do DJ mostly house/electronic music and was wondering if anybody else in this thread could give me their opinion. I tested the ES3X with ipod 5.5G and with new MacBook Pro and with DJM 600 and DJM 800 Pioneer DJ mixers. On they DJ mixers the ES3x sounded better but still very little bass.

Following HeadphoneAddict suggestion, i bought the Shure volume attenuator to remove some of the hiss that the DJ mixer gave but SQ is pretty much the same.

I think that a headphone amp is probably the next step as per HeadphoneAddict suggestion, but will this improve the bass?

Thanks for hearing me out and thanks to all for the invaluable info I have learned on this thread.

Julian



I suppose if all I listened to was my Edition 9 that going to the ES3X would sound bass-lite. I am hoping nothing is wrong with yours, because the ES3X have "normal" amounts of bass for me and everyone else.

The amp you want is the Practical Devices XM5 with bass boost switch - the sound quality of the amp section fed by an analog signal is very good if your source is good. You don't need to use the built-in USB DAC it comes with, just ignore it, although the DAC on a PC is as good as the one in the Meier 3MOVE and RSA Predator. The volume knob works well at low volumes with sensitive IEM, and you can activate the 75 ohm impedance switch if you want to cut hiss or make the volume quieter for a wider range of adjustment with sensitive IEM (75 ohm might cut bass slightly, I will have to try it later).

It also features a battery indicator, crossfeed, treble boost, and a high low gain, plus charging internal battery. And, you can change the opamps inside to change the sound.

See my review of the XM5 here in post #2 of the following thread: UPDATED 2/22 REVIEW 13 USB DAC amp - Predator, Pico, 2/3MOVE, D10 D3 D2 Viper/Boa D1, Lyrix, MicroAmp, Vivid V1, Nuforce, XM5 - Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio
 
Apr 4, 2009 at 11:36 AM Post #492 of 1,871
All great suggestions - check how you insert them, check your seal, practical devices amp Larry recommends, etc.

Bass expectations, especially on a custom can be a tricky thing. In hindsight, testing out a generic IEM first probably would have been a good idea. The UM2 might have been a good starting point.

Personally I was pleasantly surprised by the quantity and quality of bass in the ES3x. Works well for me.

If you are able to get the inserted well and know you get a good seal I would suggest giving them some time and listening exclusively to the ES3x. Try that for two weeks. Then see what you think.

There are definitely customs with more bass, specifically the UE5c and the UE11, however for most folks the ES3x, once you are acclimaed to the sound will have great bass.

Unfortunately, this does bring up a very good point as well. Not every headphone is for everyone customs are the trickiest of all, since once you buy them you are done.

If I had to pick a favorite for electronics as an example, I would go with the UE11. The bass hits hard with a lot of weight and is great for that type of music.

I tend to find the UE11 more akin to listening to a recording vs. the ES3x which is more like listening to musians playing music.

When I apply this concept to electronica it makes sense that the UE11 are my preference since electronica, even live is always recorded or electronic music. It isn't playing a recording of a person playing a traditional instrument.

Hope some of this rambling makes sense.
 
Apr 4, 2009 at 11:46 AM Post #493 of 1,871
Glad to hear Westone acknowledges it is something on their end. I had a channel imbalance with my ES2 that was maddening. Unfortunately I was having some ear issues as well at the same time so it never was resolved and I chalked it up to a hearing issue (long story).

After purchasing other customs and then going back to the Es2, I can easily hear that it is an issue with the ES2.

Best of luck and rest assured that Westone has top notch customer service.


Quote:

Originally Posted by music_4321 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The bad:
The balance of left/right sound reproduction is, er, unbalanced, ie more sound coming from the right earpiece (ep) than the left one.

The excitement of a great new product, the great SQ coupled with the prospect of sending ES3X back to Westone... well, I wanted to wait and see if there really was a problem or not -- I noticed the lower end of the left ep sticks out about half a centimetre (0.5mm) and, though not uncomfortable, the ep doesn't quite snap into place as it should like the right one does. I compared my other headphones & IEMs and there definitely is an imbalance, not massive but clearly there.

The Good:
Spoke to someone from Westone, who explained that this sometimes happens and that it was nothing to do with my left ear impression but a fault from their end. So, they'll be covering the cost for FedEx 48-hr Express delivery both ways.

Westone's CS is absolutely superb. The person I spoke to was very reassuring, friendly, and professional - he asked several questions and answered all of mine thoroughly, never rushing or trying to convince me of anything.



 
Apr 4, 2009 at 12:23 PM Post #494 of 1,871
Quote:

Originally Posted by digihead /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Glad to hear Westone acknowledges it is something on their end. I had a channel imbalance with my ES2 that was maddening. Unfortunately I was having some ear issues as well at the same time so it never was resolved and I chalked it up to a hearing issue (long story).

After purchasing other customs and then going back to the Es2, I can easily hear that it is an issue with the ES2.

Best of luck and rest assured that Westone has top notch customer service.



Thanks digihead - Yes, I got my ES3X on Tuesday and by Thursday night the imbalance issue was starting to make me feel quite uneasy, and yesterday I finally did all the testing with other IEMs and full headphones. Amazing, though, that even with this issue I was enjoying the music so much - the imbalance is there, but not drastic, but nevertheless clearly noticeable, so much so that I kept changing the music to check other recordings, as A/B'ing with customs can be tiresome and time-consuming. I'd say I'm getting 53-55% on the right and 45-47% on the left, a diff of 6-10% as if sound was coming slightly north-east of my head (stage), more noticeable in vocals - midrange, I suppose.
 
Apr 4, 2009 at 4:15 PM Post #495 of 1,871
I wonder if getting the ES3X with either the long tips or the short tips would effect the amount of bass that one perceives. I noticed that with my IE8, once I found replacement tips (instead of using the supplied stock tips) the bass became more taut and powerful to a significant degree.
 

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