[spleisher]

That's actually an interesting observation, that it may come down to a less forgiving, more analytical nature of the IEM.

That brings up another question in my mind though... IS there a point where "detail" and the analyitcal nature of a headphone can go too far, to the point where it makes them more difficult to listen to?

I'm not trying to suggest that the Westone 3 has crossed that line by any means, I'm just pointing out that, to me, part of what headphone manufacturers and their research/development people tryto accompish is to procduce a headphone that is "pleasant" to listen to. This is the part that gets REALLY subjective, because everyone has their own taste when it comes to sound signature.

But it would seem to me that if a headphone is so unforgiving and analytical that it makes it difficult to hide "unpleasant" sounds that hurt your ears, that might go a step to far.

 

[jc9394]

For me understand IEM is the "monitor", if you ever listen music on the high end studio monitors, they are no forgiving at all. I kind of expect a high end in ear monitor is suppose to not color or alter the recording, it is suppose to reveal as close to what is suppose to record at.

 

[pdupiano]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spleisher /img/forum/go_quote.gif ... What I said was that tips should be for the purpose of achieving a comfortable fit, and for achieving the required seal for an IEM to function as they are designed to function. I am quite aware that having a seal or not is a REALLY BIG DEAL. An IEM user needs to do nothing more than break their seal by pulling their IEM slightly away from their ear, thereby watching all their bass impact magically disappear to figure that out. What I am saying is that IF users have to experiment heavily with tips (triple flange vs. bi-flange, longer or shorter, foam or silicon, WHATEVER) to resolve ISSUES with the sound such as sibilance, there might be an actual problem, or tendency toward a problem, with the IEM....

Sorry bud, can't have it both ways. Tips can't both be just a simple fit/comfort problem (like, I'll use the medium tips because my ear canals arent that big) and not an integral problem to obtaining the designed sound. As I said before, its in the inherent design of IEMS. Even if you take a look at the entire price spectrum, from cheapo buds you find at ratshack/bestbuy etc.. to the higher end iem's. They all focus on using similar tips (silicone buds) with similar barrel designs. This tells me that the industry has resorted to using this technology because it works for a majority and its the easiest to obtain what they are looking for.

But as I mentioned before, if the whole tip issue of IEMs bother you then there are customs and there are non-in ear high quality/hi-fi headphones being sold by head-direct (sub 300 range). But the pk1 series (I dont remember which) is a limited design, they're the ONLY company I've heard of who has them and head-fier's have been happy with them as well. So you have a product that only requires you to put it in your ears and you get the designed audio quality, no fidgetting etc...

I think you're really asking why iem's are designed the way theyre designed, there are alternatives, but youd need to make compromises with either your wallet or your ears. I just see the current state of iem's as their most optimized design for sound/max users.

 

[pdupiano]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jc9394 /img/forum/go_quote.gif For me understand IEM is the "monitor", if you ever listen music on the high end studio monitors, they are no forgiving at all. I kind of expect a high end in ear monitor is suppose to not color or alter the recording, it is suppose to reveal as close to what is suppose to record at.

X2: the point is to reproduce sound as it is. If the recording's bad then its bad. Alot of head-fiers around here even follow particular audio engineers because their work is well mastered. If iem's are so harsh and analytic to the point that its uncomfortable, and its the recording itself then they are infact coloring the sound (which is undesireable anyway).

 

[spleisher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdupiano /img/forum/go_quote.gif X2: the point is to reproduce sound as it is. If the recording's bad then its bad. Alot of head-fiers around here even follow particular audio engineers because their work is well mastered. If iem's are so harsh and analytic to the point that its uncomfortable, and its the recording itself then they are infact coloring the sound (which is undesireable anyway).

I see where you're coming from on that, but if an IEM is often sounding sibilant on many different recordings/rips where other IEM's aren't, logic doesn't tell me to blame MANY recordings as opposed to the ONE IEM in question. I dunno, I just don't fully buy into the idea that is really "better" because it is harsher/more analytical.

Here's another point. It may sound like I'm arguing on terminology here, but it's relevant because a coouple of people in this thread are now using the term "monitor" to define how these headphones should sound.

You see the term "IEM" used a lot on the forum, and I'm wondering if it's used correctly. Here's what I mean. Just because an earphone goes in your ear canal, is it automatically an "In Ear Monitor"? I don't think so. I think the term "IEM" is overused on the forum, mostly because it is convenient to type, and sounds cool. But I don't think it accurately describes all of the products we're talking about.

I'm not going to go out and poll all of the manufacturers, but I think "Monitor" is a term we're placing on these products, at least in many cases. These are NOT professional monitors. For example, Shure calls them "Sound Isolating Earphones". Klipsch describes the X10 as an "in-ear earphone" in their site, not an "in-ear monitor". Those are just a couple of quick examples, but I suspect there are more.

Again, maybe I seem nit-picky, but I think before we use the term "monitor" to formulate an argument on how these products should sound, we might want to verify that "monitors" is what they really are.

 

[moseboy]

.

 

[spleisher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moseboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif I know some will get pissed at me for saying this, but I just wanted to share my feelings, so hear me out.... I know we call them "IEMs," which implies that they're "monitors," but in reality... they're just high-end earphones. If you want reference-quality, "exactly as it is" sound, get headphones or speakers that are reference quality. That takes tips, fit, and ear canal formation completely out of the equation. Or at least custom IEMs that are reference quality, but is that what you really want? I personally want an earphone that I like. That sounds good to me. I don't care if it's reference quality or colored off the charts. I'm not looking at a frequency response graph when I wear my earphones. I'm not mixing a band when I'm listening to my favorite music on my way to class. I just want to listen to my music, and I want it to sound good. So the question is, was Westone going for reference quality, "exactly as it is" sound with the Westone 3? I personally don't think so. I think they colored the sound, which is fine if you like their sound signature. But if you're finding that the music you once loved doesn't sound as good with your new earphones, don't just say that it "was meant to sound that way" and keep them for that reason unless that's what you really want to hear. If that is what you want to hear, fantastic: You made an awesome purchase. If it's not, cut your losses and find something that makes your music sound good to you, not something that makes your earphones sound good. Whatever makes you happy. All I'm trying to say is if you're hearing sibilance with your Westone 3 and you don't like it and can't get rid of it, why force yourself to live with them? Westone isn't saying, "This is as good as it gets for you personally." Yes, they are one of the most advanced earphones in terms of technology, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll sound the best to you for sure. That's why all of these companies exist: Everyone has different tastes, meaning that, despite being "universal" earphones, one earphone does not fit all. So you can go ahead and say that what you're hearing is how you think your music was meant to sound and does sound. That means your earphones are accurate. I personally prefer an enjoyable sound no matter how inaccurate it is. But if you can find a solution that is both accurate and enjoyable, then you are truly "there." And probably won't be coming back anytime soon .

Very well said Moseboy. I just started a new thread on this "Monitor" term. Maybe I'm seeming too picky, but I really think it's being mis-used across the board on Head-Fi. Even the manufacturers don't call them "Monitors", unless or course, they are. In that case, they're sold as professional equipment, not consumer earphones, albeit high-end expensive ones.

 

[Spad]

Excellent post, Moseboy. I doubt better advice is possible.

 

[pdupiano]

well put, but id also say if you're only concerned about what's right for you.... why are you posting on the forums? Its not that I'm saying you shoudln't, but I'm just saying if you're worried about what sounds right to you... then why post here? my thoughts, or someone else's thoughts shouldnt affect your perception of your headphones. And trying to defend a pair is just pointless if at the end all that matters is your perception of the sound. This isn't completely directed at moseboy but to others including myself on the forums who defend certain pieces of audio equipment. I post on here because I believe in trying to find a consensus on the best of the best audio equipment, not to try and defend my choices. So if you're posting to defend a set of IEMS, AND state that at the end all that matters is what you think, then reconsider posting. Cuz in the past few days some guys have been trolling (or acting like it) by posting new SE530vW3 posts and overrated this overrated that etc.... So yeah if at the end all you care about are your ears then forget what I've said, and forget what others have said.Trust you're ears. But if you're here (as I know many lurkers are, since I was one for years) to find a consensus on the best set of audio equipment, I hope that us head-fi members can give that to you, just bear with while you dig through our not so useful posts.

 

[Spad]

In the end it's always the same. We buy gear hoping that it will suit our tastes and, if it doesn't, we move on to other choices. But I don't think we should bend over backwards to avoid contentious responses. What a bland place this would be if we did that. Should someone proclaim that all birds are blue and there happens to be redbird perched on your windowsill I believe you should feel perfectly free to say so. Personally, I prefer a slightly rougher path to walking on eggshells.

 

[tstarn06]

Agree. 100 percent (with pdpiano). If all that matters is what you personally hear, then no reason to post, really. Just read, get some ideas, buy and try, and be happy. Way too much navel-gazing here, in the sense that unless you own the phone in question, you should not post in the thread other than to ask questions. Example, I have a lot of posts, but I have never posted a comment about SE530s, Triple-Fi, or any other phones I do not own or never heard. What would be the point? I have asked questions, and answered questions, made suggestions and listened to suggestions, but never commented on a brand, type model of phone I didn't own or at least have tried out.

Seems to me there is way too much speculation/commenting here on phones/gear without having owned/heard it. That makes absolutely no sense to me.

As for the entire IEM semantics issue, rightly or wrongly, IEM is just used as a generic term for something that goes relatively deep in your ear. I once tried to say IEMs were one thing and canal phones were another thing. Someone took exception, saying all but ear buds were IEMs (I mean, if they were inside your ear in any way). To me, it's a non-issue what you call these pieces of gear. We pretty much all know what we mean, no?

 

[moseboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdupiano /img/forum/go_quote.gif well put, but id also say if you're only concerned about what's right for you.... why are you posting on the forums? Its not that I'm saying you shoudln't, but I'm just saying if you're worried about what sounds right to you... then why post here? my thoughts, or someone else's thoughts shouldnt affect your perception of your headphones. And trying to defend a pair is just pointless if at the end all that matters is your perception of the sound. This isn't completely directed at moseboy but to others including myself on the forums who defend certain pieces of audio equipment. I post on here because I believe in trying to find a consensus on the best of the best audio equipment, not to try and defend my choices. So if you're posting to defend a set of IEMS, AND state that at the end all that matters is what you think, then reconsider posting. Cuz in the past few days some guys have been trolling (or acting like it) by posting new SE530vW3 posts and overrated this overrated that etc.... So yeah if at the end all you care about are your ears then forget what I've said, and forget what others have said.Trust you're ears. But if you're here (as I know many lurkers are, since I was one for years) to find a consensus on the best set of audio equipment, I hope that us head-fi members can give that to you, just bear with while you dig through our not so useful posts.

...I just read that twice and I'm still confused as to what you're getting at.

All I was doing was posting my feelings, and this thread seemed like the place to do it. I'm sorry if it wasn't called for. I wasn't trying to defend anything. I don't even have the Westone 3. I do have the SE530, I ordered the IE8, and I'm not trying to defend either of them....

Did I do something wrong?

 

[moseboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tstarn06 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Agree. 100 percent (with pdpiano). If all that matters is what you personally hear, then no reason to post, really. Just read, get some ideas, buy and try, and be happy. Way too much navel-gazing here, in the sense that unless you own the phone in question, you should not post in the thread other than to ask questions. Example, I have a lot of posts, but I have never posted a comment about SE530s, Triple-Fi, or any other phones I do not own or never heard. What would be the point? I have asked questions, and answered questions, made suggestions and listened to suggestions, but never commented on a brand, type model of phone I didn't own or at least have tried out.

Wow, I really suck at life apparently. I'm sorry. Deleting that post now....

EDIT: spleisher, please delete my quote from your post. I shouldn't have said anything....

 

[thechungster]

Please remind me what sibilance is, I am not familiar with the audio jargon yet.

 

[tstarn06]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moseboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wow, I really suck at life apparently. I'm sorry. Deleting that post now.... EDIT: spleisher, please delete my quote from your post. I shouldn't have said anything....

You missed the point, which is you have posted countless times in W3 threads, sometimes to ask questions/get advice (early on), but of late, mostly for reasons unknown. Why not get some W3s and then comment to your heart's content.

I didn't say no one should have the right to say anything. Freedom of speech, of course. But why bother posting comments constantly on threads about a phone it seems you have no intention of owning? Example: Some, including me, noted that the W3 cables became a little unraveled. Your post on the subject:

"Wow, it is way too early for something like this to start happening. Cable problems were the last thing I expected people to complain about with the Westone 3, especially with how much it was praised when compared to other earphones like the SE530.

I'm sorry this is happening to you guys."

Now, what's the point? You really are concerned for we poor, mainly happy W3 owners? See what I mean? You just seem to relish any chance to get in a dig on the W3s. I could be reading it wrong. But even if I am wrong, I am consistent. Check the IE8, Triple-Fi or SE530 threads. I didn't make a single post cause I don't own them. I did maybe say something about giving them a try, but that's about it. Just me. You can do what you like.