[spleisher]

Hi All,

There's been a lof of discussion on the forums about the Westone 3's, whether or not there is an issue with sibilance, and if so, what owners/listeners can do to resolve the issue.

At the risk of ruffling a lof of feathers, I'd like to take a different angle on the discussion, and I'm curious to know what people think.

Here's my point: For the sake of argument, let's assume that it is true that a lot of people are hearing sibilance in the Westone 3's, and that it is also true that it can be mostly resolved with experimenting with tips.

I believe that monkeying around with tips should be more about achieving a good, comfortable fit and good seal, and a whole lot less about achieving tolerable sound. The way I see it, if you're having to experiment with tips to get rid of an ISSUE with the sound, then there is some larger problem in play besides the tips.

Put simply, a $400 set of headphones should be designed in such a way that, although different users may have to experiement with tips for fit, they should not have to do it to achieve decent sound.

It's been said that longer tips help to resolve the issue. Well, what if you're just someone who has shallower ear canals? Have you then just bought a $400 set of heaphones that won't work for you?

I mean, come on. We're talking about something that costs $400 here. It should be a little more forgiving, given its price point, don't you think? We're talking about audio equipmet that, while very high end, is marketed toward consumers, not audio engineers with degrees in sound.

Should tips make a differece? Of course, they do in all IEM's. But once you've acheived a good fit and confortable seal with a tip, their job should be 90% done.

Just some food for thought. Enjoy!

 

[moseboy]

Wow.... Just wow.... I would quote your entire post, but that's a little unnecessary. After a month of me trying to explain myself in some other threads, you managed to somehow jump into my head and say exactly what I've been trying to say. I couldn't have said it any better. Bravo.

I'm probably gonna get a lot of crap for even posting this comment, so this will be my only post on this thread. But well said.

EDIT: Lies. Not my last post.

 

[jinx20001]

x3, people tend to think tips modify sound but in reality they are not designed to, which is why any modification to sound is very very small, despite people having massive overhauls lol

but yeh i agree, if you have to change tips because of the sound then there IS an issue clearly. but this thread is about to be bombarded with fanboys so be prepared!!

 

[Morph201]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spleisher /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi All, There's been a lof of discussion on the forums about the Westone 3's, whether or not there is an issue with sibilance, and if so, what owners/listeners can do to resolve the issue. At the risk of ruffling a lof of feathers, I'd like to take a different angle on the discussion, and I'm curious to know what people think. Here's my point: For the sake of argument, let's assume that it is true that a lot of people are hearing sibilance in the Westone 3's, and that it is also true that it can be mostly resolved with experimenting with tips. I believe that monkeying around with tips should be more about achieving a good, comfortable fit and good seal, and a whole lot less about achieving tolerable sound. The way I see it, if you're having to experiment with tips to get rid of an ISSUE with the sound, then there is some larger problem in play besides the tips. Put simply, a $400 set of headphones should be designed in such a way that, although different users may have to experiement with tips for fit, they should not have to do it to achieve decent sound. It's been said that longer tips help to resolve the issue. Well, what if you're just someone who has shallower ear canals? Have you then just bought a $400 set of heaphones that won't work for you? I mean, come on. We're talking about something that costs $400 here. It should be a little more forgiving, given its price point, don't you think? We're talking about audio equipmet that, while very high end, is marketed toward consumers, not audio engineers with degrees in sound. Should tips make a differece? Of course, they do in all IEM's. But once you've acheived a good fit and confortable seal with a tip, their job should be 90% done. Just some food for thought. Enjoy!

Didja ever think that maybe, JUST maybe the problem isn't the IEM, but the "consumer"?

Jinx: The way I see it, yer all jus a bunch of fanboiz!123#@$

 

[pdupiano]

I think its a pointless statement when you take a deeper look at what these IEMS are:

....
...
..
.

Universal IEMS

If you're really having a problem with tips/etcc then that can be solved by getting a custom mold and if that doesn't fix the problem, then there is something drastically problematic with the W3's themselves. People's ears are very different. Infact I remember a new york time's article about one of their writers who had "deformed" ear canals. Wherein he could not use regular ear buds, so he tried to look for an alternative (bone vibrating headphones).

But to get to your main point:
"Why can't they design a $400 set of IEMS that can work for a greater majority of people"

-I think they have. When you read threads, you pass by anyone that says, oh theyre great and you focus on the handful that say they have sibilance issues/etcc... Take a closer look on the appreciation thread versus the number of complaints. the number of complaints are far fewer than 1/10 of the number of praises. Mind you, I do feel bad if a head-fier can't experience the true quality that can be obtained from these higher end iems, I just don't see it as being a real issue when universal iems are designed this way ... Its expected to happen. If a company can make a TRULY Universal IEM, ie one that would be perfect for every consumer, then I would join you right away and say you have a valid point. But this isn't the case. All engineering/design work is done to benefit the greatest number of people (optimization) and unfortunately there are quite a bit who may not fall into the category.

Take for example UE TF pro's. Unless your ear canals are larger (than mine/others I'm sure), you can't use their tips because they are uncomfortably larger and its impossible to get a good seal with them. But am I saying, OMG they dropped the ball, they wont fit in mine and a handful of other people's ears? What !! Why can't a 300 pair of headphones accomodate for my needs?!!ARGGHHH. - No way! I understand that there are a greater majority of individuals who are able to use them and use them happily, I just happen to be in the minority who cannot use them.

Same thing would be true about the W3's. If my memory serves me right, a company is currently trying to design a universal fit IEM, where it has a long rubber tip, that will adjust with a screw to create a "custom seal" for the consumer. It's a relatively low end IEM, but its a new technology that may work and eventually make its way to higher end iems. Till then no UNIVERSAL iem exists, engineers can only optimize not solve everything (even at 400 dollars). BTW I think custom molds for W3's, Se530's are 120 at earphonesolutions.

There ya go, you're first ruffled feather, but not really ruffled since I'm fairly calm and I just don't think you have a valid point YET. But it would be valid if 1/4 of all W3 users said they had fit issues, cuz then Westone needs to get a new set of engineers designing their headphones and maybe I can get a job with them

 

[pdupiano]

Oh btw, umm I dont own W3's... so can I still be a W3 fanboy?

 

[jinx20001]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdupiano /img/forum/go_quote.gif But am I saying, OMG they dropped the ball, they wont fit in mine and a handful of other people's ears? What !! Why can't a 300 pair of headphones accomodate for my needs?!!ARGGHHH. - No way! I understand that there are a greater majority of individuals who are able to use them and use them happily, I just happen to be in the minority who cannot use them.

well i think with the design of the triple fi that ultimate ears did drop the ball. you may not think so but i think when you design a set of phones that are that poor fitting and that damn big and sloppy its fair to say they kinda cocked up and should be doing better IMO.

in regards to what your saying about universal iem's, i think tip selection is there to help people get the best fit, not the best sound, thats the long and short of it, your right if somebody has custom molds and still the sibilance issue this makes the problem even more clear that its a issue with the internals.

 

[spleisher]

Well, Morph... I've been in IT/Network Admin/Support for about 10 years now, so I'm pretty familiar with the very real phenomenon of "user error". But a headphone ain't really recket science, unless of course you're designing one, so the little bit of faith that I have in human intelligence would like to hope not.

If it were the same old person whining about sibilance/abilty to achieve a fit all the time, or even a small group of people, I would tend to think that as well.

But it seems to me this is pretty widespread. I think I recall a poll where there was a pretty high percentage who reported this issue. Maybe someone can link to it. I forget where it is.

I know we have to take polls with a huge grain of salt, but this issue seems, anecdotally at least, to be bigger than just a few goofballs who can't find a tip that fits/seals.

 

[moseboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spleisher /img/forum/go_quote.gif But it seems to me this is pretty widespread. I think I recall a poll where there was a pretty high percentage who reported this issue. Maybe someone can link to it. I forget where it is.

Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio - View Poll Results

Look... physically, Westone created a great earphone. It fits great, the cable is great for the most part, it's comfortable, and it isolates well. Awesome. So the only reason any significant percentage of people shouldn't like them is because they don't like their sound signature.

I have seen very few people say they don't like these for other reasons besides sibilance. That's the point we're trying to make here.

 

[PhilS]

I don't own the W3, but I think it's unclear how many people have problems with the W3. This forum is not necessarily a representative sample of IEM users -- such that one can make a judgment based on comments in this forum that Westone has failed in some way with the W3.

As to the comment that a $400 IEM should be more forgiving, I suspect it's not that easy not matter how much you spend to make a universal IEM that is going to fit and sound perfect to the vast majority of picky users on this forum. The physical characteristics of everybody's ears are different, and they change over time. The best one can do, IMO, is provide a reasonable number of tips. If people need to buy extra-market tips because their ears are funky, that's life. And some people may never achieve a perfect fit, or may be too impatient to really give the W3 (or any other IEM) a fair chance. Seems to me, based merely on what I've read, that Westone has put on the market a pretty good, competitive produce, that lot's of folks with be very happy with.

 

[Morph201]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spleisher /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, Morph... I've been in IT/Network Admin/Support for about 10 years now, so I'm pretty familiar with the very real phenomenon of "user error". But a headphone ain't really recket science, unless of course you're designing one, so the little bit of faith that I have in human intelligence would like to hope not. If it were the same old person whining about sibilance/abilty to achieve a fit all the time, or even a small group of people, I would tend to think that as well. But it seems to me this is pretty widespread. I think I recall a poll where there was a pretty high percentage who reported this issue. Maybe someone can link to it. I forget where it is. I know we have to take polls with a huge grain of salt, but this issue seems, anecdotally at least, to be bigger than just a few goofballs who can't find a tip that fits/seals.

Well, I was going more with the possibility that it might be anatomically impossible to achieve the proper fit with that particular IEM, moreso than not being able to find it (?)... Although it's not a guarantee, perhaps customs may be better option?

 

[spleisher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx20001 /img/forum/go_quote.gif in regards to what your saying about universal iem's, i think tip selection is there to help people get the best fit, not the best sound, thats the long and short of it, your right if somebody has custom molds and still the sibilance issue this makes the problem even more clear that its a issue with the internals.

Exactly. What I'm saying is that tips should not be an issue of sound, but of fit and comfort, and to the extent that the fit affects whether or not you get a seal, then of course sound as well. But really, that's the ONLY extent that I believe tips should have a major impact on sound.

If placement of company x's (it doesn't even have to be Westone) universal IEM in the ear canal is so sensitive that the sound is changed in some large way based on the tip used, I think there's a basic sound and/or physical design problem in play, especially when you consider how different people's ears are.

Once a fit/seal is achieved, everyone's sound experience with a given IEM should be pretty close to the same (opinion and subjectivity notwithstanding) regardless of the specific tip used.

I do agree with the idea that people tend to focus on the few complainers more than the many happy campers. That's just human nature, unfortunately. But it seems to me that it is more than just a few in this particular case. Maybe not, but that's what I'm seeing.

 

[spleisher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morph201 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, I was going more with the possibility that it might be anatomically impossible to achieve the proper fit with that particular IEM, moreso than not being able to find it (?)... Although it's not a guarantee, perhaps customs may be better option?

Well yeah, I agree with you.... if someone just can't get a fit, anatomically. Absolutely.

But again, I think we really need to start discussing fit and sound separately.

To me, a fit means a) It's reasonably physically comfortable to wear and b) you have a decent seal.

Beyond that, I think you can, or at least should be able to mostly separate fir from sound. And really, that only applies to b) the seal. I suppose an IEM could sound AWESOME and be totally uncomfortable.

Again, if sound issues are pretty common with an IEM unless a tip is used that places the end of the nozzle at the exact perfect distance from the innards of your ear, I think that's not cool..... Especially in something that consumers are being asked to drop $400 for the pleasure of hearing.

 

[kaushama]

W3 is a wonderful product. It is one of the top IEMs, if not the best. But I got sibilance, when I use the best fitting tips; namely black silicon large tip and Futuresonic earfill dual flange. I compared the same track with HD650 and my home rig, till I do not hear the sibilance with various tips. I only can listen to it, without sibilance, with the triple flange. It also gives a good fit but most comfortable and easy fit is achieved with aforementioned tips.
I think I am one of those rare persons, either imagine it or having problems. I think the products of this price range, have another problem. The users chase behind perfect SQ and have trained ears. It wouldn't have been a problem for cheap pair of IEMs. In fact most mid-range IEMs have sibilance. But people who pay 400$ for an IEM will be nick picking. I do not see a problem with it.
Without sibilance it is a wonderfully musical, detailed and accurate IEM. Build quality is top-notch.
Westone can not do such a blunder with top IEM! That is a statement putting great respect for this wonderful company. I do not want to be biased by such a respectful thought. I believe my ears. The way I hear is more important for my enjoyment of music after paying 400$.
This kind of problems can occur in any product. I wonder they have tested it with a significant number of people before releasing it. Best example is designing medications. Researchers find many adverse events after so many years of usage, despite vigorous testing in the development stage. And they correct or withdraw them.
I hope a great company like Westone will look into the problem scientifically and provide a simple solution. The most sensible thing is to provide better designed ear tips to supplement people who experience the problem.

 

[moseboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spleisher /img/forum/go_quote.gif Again, if sound issues are pretty common with an IEM unless a tip is used that places the end of the nozzle at the exact perfect distance from the innards of your ear, I think that's not cool..... Especially in something that consumers are being asked to drop $400 for the pleasure of hearing.

X2

For $400, the question as to whether or not that pair of earphones will hurt someone's ears due to harsh sibilance when they listen to them shouldn't even exist.