[Currawong]

Hmm ,
thanks for the clarification. But,you surprise me again when saying that both LCD5 and Stealth aim to be "tonally correct and accurate" (albeit with different sonic goals)??? I fail to understand what you mean by that?
With my reference material if aiming for the same two criteria they should sound VERY similar, NOT different.

Regarding LCD and complex densely scored symphonic material their former top model LCD4 which is the only LCD headphone I have auditioned,to me exhibited clearly audible colourations and limitations and is a headphone I would not choose for optimal tonal accuracy with symphonic music.
How would you say their new LCD 5 sounds compared to Stealth or whichever headphones you rate as the most neutral and transparent with the reference point I am using?
Cheers CC

Both companies have different ideas about what is "correct". Audeze, for example, doesn't believe that the Harman curve is good, and their goal is making a pair of high-end studio monitors, whereas DCA does follow the Harman curve and its goals, so the tonality of each pair of headphones is slightly different. Also, the Stealth uses a completely unique waveguide between the driver and the ear, which removes a large amount of distortion that people are used to hearing in headphones, which goes back to the point about what people are used to hearing from headphones, which includes a lot of distortion.

 

[Christer]

Both companies have different ideas about what is "correct". Audeze, for example, doesn't believe that the Harman curve is good, and their goal is making a pair of high-end studio monitors, whereas DCA does follow the Harman curve and its goals, so the tonality of each pair of headphones is slightly different. Also, the Stealth uses a completely unique waveguide between the driver and the ear, which removes a large amount of distortion that people are used to hearing in headphones, which goes back to the point about what people are used to hearing from headphones, which includes a lot of distortion.

Thanks ,that sounds interesting indeed, I hope to audition the Stealth asap.
Cheers CC

 

[kennyb123]

Milk is not the correct analogy . As babies we all have had milk and designed to have a taste for it - so later in life we might miss it when taken away or given alternatives such as oat milk .
I think "someone's Mom 's cooking"is more apt.
what if your mom added a little Cinnamon to your omelette , every time she made it while you were growing up?
for the rest of your life, having an omelette without it, just wouldn't taste right, to you at least!

My point was to argue that there are some things that naturally delight our senses - and will do so regards as to whether we are regularly exposed to them. I didn‘t taste Indian food until I was in my 20s and yet immediately it was WOW.

From our first moments we hear natural sounds. Voices and other sounds around the house can‘t be missed. We were gifted with incredible abilities to discern a great deal about these sounds. If one were to spend their early 20s listening to a crap stereo, it still pales to the amount of time they are hearing pure unadulterated sounds as they go about life. We can’t help but develop tremendous discernment capabilities.

I understand why some will want to still cling to the idea that there are others who prefer the sound of distortion. But I think the goal is to set themselves apart as having superior tastes than the masses.

 

[jarnopp]

My point was to argue that there are some things that naturally delight our senses - and will do so regards as to whether we are regularly exposed to them. I didn‘t taste Indian food until I was in my 20s and yet immediately it was WOW.

From our first moments we hear natural sounds. Voices and other sounds around the house can‘t be missed. We were gifted with incredible abilities to discern a great deal about these sounds. If one were to spend their early 20s listening to a crap stereo, it still pales to the amount of time they are hearing pure unadulterated sounds as they go about life. We can’t help but develop tremendous discernment capabilities.

I understand why some will want to still cling to the idea that there are others who prefer the sound of distortion. But I think the goal is to set themselves apart as having superior tastes than the masses.

Food might be a good analogy. A Big Mac or some form of processed fast food is designed to appeal to our taste buds. But, it actually dulls the ability to discern if that is your entire diet. Indian food, if made from fresh ingredients, would be akin to amplified music, well recorded. And going back to fresh, uncooked or processed fruits, nuts and vegetables might be like unamplified music. To discern the true flavor of something, you need to have it fresh, raw and carefully grown. Then, you know how to mix and match to create more flavors. Or, you can add a bunch of MSG and sugar and it still goth appeal, but it will make you sick, or at least dull your appreciation for the subtler more natural flavors. All ones choice, of course.

 

[kennyb123]

To discern the true flavor of something, you need to have it fresh, raw and carefully grown.

You did a nice job further drawing out the analogy. My only quibble is with the emphasis on “fresh”.

One of the more difficult sounds to reproduce is a live electric guitar that’s full of distortion. There’s something about the way this sounds live that seems in many cases to have not even made it into the recording. And when it has made it, it often takes a not insignificant amount of money to get that sound recreated in our homes. It’s exhilarating when it’s reproduced well.

That distortion may be analogous to the MSG or sugar added to a dish. But there is still a vast difference between what we taste from a frozen dinner and that same dish prepared at a really good restaurant. Would anyone ever choose the frozen dinner if it could come to them directly from a good restaurant? Likewise for a really good burger vs what you get from McDonalds. The argument put forth about the Stealth headphones was essentially saying that those who like McDonalds burger or frozen dinners would reject the better taste of the better options presented to them. I’m sorry but I just don’t see that happening 99% of the time.

I’m getting hungry for some reason.

 

[The Jester]

Take another of our senses, the sense of smell, and how discerning the combination of our external sensors are, hearing, vision, taste, smell, etc and the way the brain interprets the various signals, the chemical difference between the smell of a pear and a banana is one carbon atom …

 

[Currawong]

Music is produced by causing distortion of the air. The pluck, hit, or bowing of a string, the blowing of air through brass pipes -- these things cause the air to distort in ways that are pleasant to us when done skilfully. There is an irony in trying to accurately reproduce these distortions, without distortion.

 

[Kentajalli]

. . . essentially saying that those who like McDonalds burger or frozen dinners would reject the better taste of the better options presented to them. I’m sorry but I just don’t see that happening 99% of the time.

I must introduce you to my nephew!
he'll put the last nail on that 99% coffin.
Alternatively visit some health food courts, then go to a kebab shop or even a hot dog van.
pay attention to queues outside.

BTW Indian curry is akin PA system with a V shaped tone.

 

[kennyb123]

I must introduce you to my nephew!
he'll put the last nail on that 99% coffin.
Alternatively visit some health food courts, then go to a kebab shop or even a hot dog van.
pay attention to queues outside.

The act of satisfying a cravings is a wholly irrational endeavor - one I am often guilty of. In many cases it’s more akin to a reaction to withdrawal symptoms. That is different though to the reaction we have when actually being fed “better”. We might crave McDonalds, but if we are instead give a premium burger, I think 99% of us would feel we had been fortunate.

 

[The Jester]

Music is produced by causing distortion of the air. The pluck, hit, or bowing of a string, the blowing of air through brass pipes -- these things cause the air to distort in ways that are pleasant to us when done skilfully. There is an irony in trying to accurately reproduce these distortions, without distortion.

That’s the whole high fidelity thing and lots of things in the chain from capture to listener, you’ve probably heard way more headphones than most of us, different “flavours” and price points with constant “ improvements”, with the major manufacturers their R&D budget into different approaches and exotic materials can be offset by trickle down of the technology throughout the range, but what happens at the other end ? , do studios regularly listen to any possible “ improvements” in microphone technology, do certain performers/vocalists have a “favourite” microphone and just stay with it ?

 

[STR-1]

Hi @Rob Watts - do you see any potential within your upscaling design plans for video, including YouTube, to be able to use the maximum number of taps available (>1M) without introducing sound/picture sync latency? My tv and 4K Blu-Ray player are connected to my DAVE/M Scaler via optical with the video filter switched on when watching.

I don’t know to what extent the inherent quality of YouTube recordings (which I know must vary) would benefit from any new designs that go above 1M taps, but thought I’d ask as there are many YouTube live recordings that I find I am enjoying more than the corresponding studio recordings. Sometimes seeing the singers and musicians perform adds immensely to the enjoyment experience. For example, would you think the quality of this Agnes Obel live recording would benefit from further tap increase?

 

[Rob Watts]

Hi @Rob Watts - do you see any potential within your upscaling design plans for video, including YouTube, to be able to use the maximum number of taps available (>1M) without introducing sound/picture sync latency? My tv and 4K Blu-Ray player are connected to my DAVE/M Scaler via optical with the video filter switched on when watching.

I don’t know to what extent the inherent quality of YouTube recordings (which I know must vary) would benefit from any new designs that go above 1M taps, but thought I’d ask as there are many YouTube live recordings that I find I am enjoying more than the corresponding studio recordings. Sometimes seeing the singers and musicians perform adds immensely to the enjoyment experience. For example, would you think the quality of this Agnes Obel live recording would benefit from further tap increase?

Lovely track - but why mixdown to mono? YouTube is very variable.

Video is very important to me, so using the Nvidia Shield allows 1M taps properly played as video can be delayed by up to 1 second to match the delay for audio. My appreciation of film has gone up markedly since using it. You can run YouTube through it too.

And yes, I am constantly pushing to improve music whether it's video or not - but it's not all about the number of taps!

 

[Christer]

Lovely track - but why mixdown to mono? YouTube is very variable.

Video is very important to me, so using the Nvidia Shield allows 1M taps properly played as video can be delayed by up to 1 second to match the delay for audio. My appreciation of film has gone up markedly since using it. You can run YouTube through it too.

And yes, I am constantly pushing to improve music whether it's video or not - but it's not all about the number of tap

My take on this track may not be very welcome. This is CC speaking.
But yes indeed both musically and performance wise I too find it good and a nice novelty for me.
I knew her name but I had never heard anything by her before..
The closest to this I normally get are some of Anouska Shankar´s recent crossover collaborations with other artists. But those are without exception better recorded and mixed than this one.
Some of her albums like Rise for example are quite well recorded and sound excellent via Mscaler.

But apart from the weird dead centre mono mix, via speakers, what bothers me with this track and almost ALL other typical modern popular genres studio recordings is the fact that they insist on almost swallowing the microphone!

Why do they almost always mic so terribly close?

No wonder there are so often sibilance problems with this type of recording.
And what I also find annoying is why they also insist on amplifiying acoustic instruments??? thereby robbing them of their natural timbres.

And what a waste of what looks like a nice hall! to both mic like that and amplify and then mix to mono?
I guess I am just a grumpy old man of the past.
I suppose I will have to be happy that the music is surprisingly good and they can both sing and play well and use real instruments.
I will have to pretend I am listening to a rare 1930s 78 rpm mono recording.
Quite a find musically.
Cheers CC

 

[STR-1]

Lovely track - but why mixdown to mono? YouTube is very variable.

Video is very important to me, so using the Nvidia Shield allows 1M taps properly played as video can be delayed by up to 1 second to match the delay for audio. My appreciation of film has gone up markedly since using it. You can run YouTube through it too.

And yes, I am constantly pushing to improve music whether it's video or not - but it's not all about the number of taps!

Thanks, Rob. I don’t mind sacrificing a little audio quality for the sake of gaining as much if not more from the visual input of YouTube videos, but will look at the Nvidia Shield and similar options for film streaming.

My take on this track may not be very welcome. This is CC speaking.
But yes indeed both musically and performance wise I too find it good and a nice novelty for me.
I knew her name but I had never heard anything by her before..
The closest to this I normally get are some of Anouska Shankar´s recent crossover collaborations with other artists. But those are without exception better recorded and mixed than this one.
Some of her albums like Rise for example are quite well recorded and sound excellent via Mscaler.

But apart from the weird dead centre mono mix, via speakers, what bothers me with this track and almost ALL other typical modern popular genres studio recordings is the fact that they insist on almost swallowing the microphone!

Why do they almost always mic so terribly close?

No wonder there are so often sibilance problems with this type of recording.
And what I also find annoying is why they also insist on amplifiying acoustic instruments??? thereby robbing them of their natural timbres.

And what a waste of what looks like a nice hall! to both mic like that and amplify and then mix to mono?
I guess I am just a grumpy old man of the past.
I suppose I will have to be happy that the music is surprisingly good and they can both sing and play well and use real instruments.
I will have to pretend I am listening to a rare 1930s 78 rpm mono recording.
Quite a find musically.
Cheers CC

Hi Christer. I’ve been reading your posts for a few years so know where you are coming from. I actually thought you were more generous than I would have expected you to be

I understand what you are saying about the close mic. But I think it suits her breathy almost whispery style of singing and the small scale intimate arrangements that were a feature of her first two albums (Philharmonics and Aventine), which she recorded and mixed on her own at home. While still keeping faith with the cello and viola, she does introduce more instrumentation and processing (voice and instrument) in her third and fourth albums (Citizen of Glass and Myopia).

I am continually surprised that very few of the people I know, who I regard as musically knowledgable, have heard of Agnes Obel. I don't seem to know any of the other 38 million people who viewed that YouTube video. But the thing is most people will have heard her music without knowing who to attribute it to as it features a lot in tv drama series. For example, the track ‘Fuel to Fire’ was the theme song to last year’s BBC submarine drama ‘Vigil’. The more recent and more heavily processed tracks ‘Familiar’ and ‘It’s Happening Again’ both featured on that wonderful German time-travelling Netflix drama ‘Dark’.

For those interested, here’s another YouTube live selection from here early work.





And here are live performances of ‘Familiar’ and ‘It’s Happening Again’ (approach with caution, Christer)

 

[musickid]

Happy new year all.

For Rob a couple of queries to bring in the new year.

What is the mscaler doing deep down to produce that well reported relaxed slowing down of tempo and analogue presentation of the music where the edginess and tension is removed? This is instantly noticeable for me with mscaled music.

Can you think of the usb input on mscaler as being asynchronous with timing coming from the fpga and optical/coax in on mscaler using the DPLL for timing accuracy as with your dacs or does the mscaler operate with a completely different mechanism?

Finally something unrelated. How can a sensitive headphone not be very efficient at the same time? My Oppo planar is 102 sensitivity but still requires high volume settings at times not for loudness but to dig deep and feel the dynamics of the music as it should be heard.