[lordmozilla]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjf /img/forum/go_quote.gif I dont see the point of these arguments... if someone wants to pay this guy a few hundred He certainly seems to have some fun...

It's not about steve ballmer, or gates or beating the system. That's the kind of fanboy attitute that linux doesn't need.

It's about runnign the best OS for the job. Linux ain't perfect but I dont want anyone believing what this guy is saying because he's saying alot of things that i believe are wrong.

Linux needs constructive arguments not evangelism.

Sorry if it felt like I was having a go at you, I just wish the linux community would stop looking down on windows users or having a laugh at ballmer for every thing he does. Now having a go at ballmer for IP and patents now that is what we need.

 

[fjf]

It was just a joke.


Quote:

Originally Posted by lordmozilla /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's not about steve ballmer, or gates or beating the system. That's the kind of fanboy attitute that linux doesn't need. It's about runnign the best OS for the job. Linux ain't perfect but I dont want anyone believing what this guy is saying because he's saying alot of things that i believe are wrong. Linux needs constructive arguments not evangelism. Sorry if it felt like I was having a go at you, I just wish the linux community would stop looking down on windows users or having a laugh at ballmer for every thing he does. Now having a go at ballmer for IP and patents now that is what we need.

 

[Arainach]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordmozilla /img/forum/go_quote.gif As for security, you're right single owner seems limiting, but that's why groups are there. Owner is irrelevant when you have groups. And either way it's still WAY more powerfull than Microsoft's filesystem permissions which everyone know suck quite badly.

Err... no? Have you even used them? They allow for an incredibly fine-grained level of control - per user and per group allow/deny settings - that even Linux with SELinux enabled can't touch. Windows/Active Directory's permissions model is one of its best points, and is why it's so dominant in corporate environments. UNIX groups lead to having a billion tiny groups with 1 or 2 users that rapidly become unmanagable. Windows allows the fine-grained permissions natively that UNIX is forced to emulate with an ugly hack.

Also, as I said: Gaming benchmarks mean nothing. They don't translate to real-world applications. Your link was worthless.

Once again, I appear to consistently be the only person in this thread who has used both operating systems for an extensive period of time. Don't go around bashing something you've never used. I certainly don't.

 

[lordmozilla]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arainach /img/forum/go_quote.gif Err... no? Have you even used them? They allow for an incredibly fine-grained level of control - per user and per group allow/deny settings - that even Linux with SELinux enabled can't touch. Windows/Active Directory's permissions model is one of its best points, and is why it's so dominant in corporate environments. UNIX groups lead to having a billion tiny groups with 1 or 2 users that rapidly become unmanagable. Windows allows the fine-grained permissions natively that UNIX is forced to emulate with an ugly hack.

lol i'm a sysadmin and we have a clustered AD enviroment.... and it's clicky clicky. It works it's not bad, but it's not that great. Now comparing SElinux to AD is hilarious though.

benchmarks prove nothing? then go find a usability survey. I don't think benchmarks are worthless, lots of people care about performance, and those that I gave you weren''t raw they where very application based. We could do some raw disk IO perf if you wanted to show NTFS was superior to EXt3, but you'd loose.

Whats you're point? Vista is faster than Linux for general desktop use? Cause put fluxbox and you're bound to loose. The great thing about linux is it's flexibility not neccesarily it's ease of use - for setting up - using it can be very easy.

 

[Arainach]

And you're forgetting the point of this thread - to talk about which OS is better for the general user in terms of usability, availability, familiarity, and ease of use including setting up. Not to talk about which is better for a sysadmin-type or for running a server. Is Linux far better than it was 5 years ago in that department? Yes. Is it anywhere near Windows? Hell no. A lot of Windows' compatibility issues are things Linux doesn't even think about - like color schemes and notification systems that work for color-blind people, completely blind people, etc. Like uniform APIs that easily translate across all languages and character sets. Like config settings that are actually described in language that someone without a B.S. in Computer Science can understand. And on and on. Linux has improved to the point where someone like you or I could do just fine with it as a desktop OS. It is not to the point where an ordinary person could do so.

 

[MusicallySilent]

Removed

 

[Arainach]

First of all, that's XP, not Vista. Vista's made several huge leaps in this arena.

Second, games rely on things like Video drivers that make them inherently unreliable as operating system benchmarks. Try actual business and desktop apps instead.

Finally, it's important to note that Linux has never had a marketshare worth writing a piece of malware for.

 

[fjf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arainach /img/forum/go_quote.gif And on and on. Linux has improved to the point where someone like you or I could do just fine with it as a desktop OS. It is not to the point where an ordinary person could do so.

I am not an ordinary person

. I am a nice person. But I have no degree on computers. I use Ubuntu with the help of Ubuntu Forums, wich is full of nice people that help eachother.

That's something a windows user cannot get. We are not customers of a rich corporation. We are a community. And we have powers

 

[Arainach]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjf /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am not an ordinary person . I am a nice person. But I have no degree on computers. I use Ubuntu with the help of Ubuntu Forums, wich is full of nice people that help eachother. That's something a windows user cannot get. We are not customers of a rich corporation. We are a community. And we have powers

Actually, there are tons of Windows forums, support numbers, discussion lists, FAQs, books, you name it. You can get the same thing.

 

[Ech0]

Self moderated....Removed.

 

[lordmozilla]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arainach /img/forum/go_quote.gif And you're forgetting the point of this thread - to talk about which OS is better for the general user in terms of usability, availability, familiarity, and ease of use including setting up. Not to talk about which is better for a sysadmin-type or for running a server. Is Linux far better than it was 5 years ago in that department? Yes. Is it anywhere near Windows? Hell no. A lot of Windows' compatibility issues are things Linux doesn't even think about - like color schemes and notification systems that work for color-blind people, completely blind people, etc. Like uniform APIs that easily translate across all languages and character sets. Like config settings that are actually described in language that someone without a B.S. in Computer Science can understand. And on and on. Linux has improved to the point where someone like you or I could do just fine with it as a desktop OS. It is not to the point where an ordinary person could do so.

you started the sysadmin talk with AD... I only carried on your point.

I've been using linux as my desktop OS since SUSE 7.3.... I'm not saying it's easier than windows like I said before, and not that it's better for blind people either. But the fact is that most of the points you're making are plain wrong. I'm not saying most people should use linux.

Vista is slower than linux. On pretty much all fronts maybe except at running vista. Virtualisation is inherently a little slower.

How many windows forums have windows developers that are willing to help you out free of charge? And here is windows support :

Quote:

Please reboot. See it's fixed!

ok not very end userish and still quite graphical but SPEC benchmarks are industry standards, and very CPU intensive.
[Phoronix] NVIDIA Workstation Performance: Windows vs. Linux vs. Solaris

 

[fjf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordmozilla /img/forum/go_quote.gif Vista is slower than linux. On pretty much all fronts maybe except at running vista. Virtualisation is inherently a little slower. How many windows forums have windows developers that are willing to help you out free of charge? And here is windows support : ok not very end userish and still quite graphical but SPEC benchmarks are industry standards, and very CPU intensive. [Phoronix] NVIDIA Workstation Performance: Windows vs. Linux vs. Solaris

True. Vista IS slower. This is particularly true in cheap laptops, sold with crappy onboard graphics and little RAM, and (of course) vista home with aero enabled. I have at least 6 friends that could not work with it. And XP is not (amazing!) an option. You are FORCED to buy them with vista. No choice. I had to downgrade them to XP or to disable aero to make them just usable. Linux would RUN, RUN! in those machines.

Quote:

Actually, there are tons of Windows forums, support numbers, discussion lists, FAQs, books, you name it. You can get the same thing.

Where on earth can you find a windows forum with more than 600.000 users that help each other gladly for free?. If we start denying the obvious, this is going to be a pointless discussion. I understand some people have to run vista or (maybe!) even like it, but refusing to admit that linux has some advantages and that people using it are not totally stupid is not (at least) very polite.

 

[lordmozilla]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjf /img/forum/go_quote.gif Where on earth can you find a windows forum with more than 600.000 users that help each other gladly for free?. If we start denying the obvious, this is going to be a pointless discussion. I understand some people have to run vista or (maybe!) even like it, but refusing to admit that linux has some advantages and that people using it are not totally stupid is not (at least) very polite.

Very nice point. I'm still unsure wether I like the ubuntu forums, but it is much more accesible than the mailing lists or IRC rooms, I often find the debian mailing list (except political ones ) the very best, even if I dont even use debian or even debian based distro's anymore.

 

[tohni]

Ubuntu feels so much more - complete (for lack of a better word), or integrated. However, my laptop's fans are so loud I have to use Windows to be able to control the fans. The many fan control tweaks and options in Ubuntu don't seem to work on my computer. Another thing is MS Office: I've had too many OpenOffice compatibility problems; hence I am stuck with Microsoft. Meh.

 

[lordmozilla]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tohni /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ubuntu feels so much more - complete (for lack of a better word), or integrated. However, my laptop's fans are so loud I have to use Windows to be able to control the fans. The many fan control tweaks and options in Ubuntu don't seem to work on my computer. Another thing is MS Office: I've had too many OpenOffice compatibility problems; hence I am stuck with Microsoft. Meh.

sounds like ACPI is a little problematic on your laptop, too bad. Is the CPU not able to downclock?