Violectric HPA V281 - Vorsprung durch Balanced (September 2023 Update: Limited Reissue Edition up for preorder!)
Dec 8, 2014 at 6:24 AM Post #1,006 of 5,977
  Isn't the schiit mjolnir supposed to be fully balanced? I always thought that was the selling point for it, that it actually was a legit fully balanced in/out amp. and that it was under a grand. Also I think in regards to sound quality, what the V281 has for balanced is whats needed to achieve the balanced sound. But I dont think balanced is really all that super important. It's just more of a technicality, and in some cases minor improvements or moreso changes in the sound. I think its more like if you're already spending this much on an amp, then might as well get output like the way it is in the recording studio, It's a why not situation.

Yes. Although I've seen no diagram (which probably I would interpret incorrectly, anyway) it is a fully balanced amp at a great price point also. Don't want to sound like Schiit but the Mjolnir is so balanced that if you try to use XLR to SE plugs for your unbalanced phones you'll burn something. I think QES Labs also builds fully balanced amps.
 
Dec 8, 2014 at 6:41 AM Post #1,007 of 5,977
  Yes. Although I've seen no diagram (which probably I would interpret incorrectly, anyway) it is a fully balanced amp at a great price point also. Don't want to sound like Schiit but the Mjolnir is so balanced that if you try to use XLR to SE plugs for your unbalanced phones you'll burn something. I think QES Labs also builds fully balanced amps.


yea, I remember reading in the schiit thread that Jason made it only balanced to keep the price low, because adding in all the circuitry for single ended operation along side balanced would make it twice the price. Which funny enough the ragnarok basically is that, and a little more lol. I think the design of the V281 is actually pretty genius when you look at it's internals. You just take two separate amps, hook them up to their own output single ended jack, so you get single ended operation easily. and then you just invert the phase on one of the amps, combine the signal from both amps, and hook that up to a balanced output jack for your balanced operation (obviously a super simplified, and dumbed down description). but thats pretty simple and straightforward compared to like the ragnarok or anything from audio-gd or bryston or Auralic. Those guys all have great designs, but they're all so complex or technical or intricate. and then the V281 is just like, heres an amp, heres another amp, stick them on top of each other, balanced lol.
 
Dec 8, 2014 at 9:08 AM Post #1,008 of 5,977
To me the only important point in a balanced amp (besides my knack for delicious circuit designs) is power: the V281 will be able to drive any headphone relevant to me (think Abyss). Soundwise I'm happy using it single ended with the K812.
 
Balanced is not win-win after all, output impedance is higher (though still not relevant) and noise level is also higher (still not relevant, too).
 
The Schiit amp Jason mentioned uses a topology that is balanced by design and one thing I definitely like about Schiit: straying from the beaten paths. What I like about Lake People / Violectric is that they do a clean design and execute it in an excellent fashion. The V281 is more versatile to me and easier to get this side of the ocean :wink:
 
Dec 8, 2014 at 11:36 AM Post #1,009 of 5,977
   
 
[size=small]As far as I can tell internally the V281 is not fully balanced. So even if you use balanced inputs the signal gets converted to single ended, and only after the volume control it is split again for the power stage. Connecting DAC using XLR input may give you the benefit of noise cancellation, but if you have a noise free RCA connection it would make no difference.[/size]

 
True. I was referring to the balanced output on the DAC side. The Anedio is not all that different between SE and balanced out but some DACs sound quite a bit better from their XLR outputs compared to their SE.
 
For the balanced amp discussion - it's important to realize that there's different schools of thought about what constitutes a "balanced amp".
 
*As has already been somewhat discussed, the Bryston BHA-1 has "true" balanced input and outputs (including a 4-gang volume pot) but still converts the signal to single-ended along the way (for reasons which elude me).
 
*The Violectric V281 and the Auralic Taurus both use a vaguely similar setup in that they have a 2-channel volume pot in the chain. So for the V281 and Taurus it's more about using the pair of (internal) amps to drive your headphones which increased voltage swing and current delivery. This method is good for maximum input/output flexibility - any input can play through any output regardless of type.
 
*The Woo WA22 is marketed as a "true" balanced amp but internally we see only 3 wires going to the headphone jacks - thus it is not really balanced, and the XLR is just for convenience only. Same deal with XLR on the Yulong A18 (they don't advertise it as being fully balanced).
 
*There ARE some amps we might call "true" balanced. They don't even have to be all that expensive. The Schiit Mjolnir, the Yulong A28, and the Firestone Bobby all have separate signal paths for the left and right channels, including the 4-gang volume pot. They convert SE inputs to balanced (using a phase splitter). The Schiit is limited to balanced outputs only, while the Yulong and Firestone both provide 1/4" jacks - but using those is essentially like using only half of the amp.
 
*Then there's the rather new concept of a "balanced" setup using dual headphone amps - such as the Questyle CMA800R or the Nuforce HA200. The concept is essentially the same but instead of having two internal amps with a balanced signal path, they take things even farther by splitting the entire thing into a separate chassis. So the 4-gang volume pot then becomes a pair of stereo pots, and each channel even gets its own dedicated power supply. 
 
As you can see, there are different ideas floating around regarding what exactly makes a "balanced headphone amp". Most of these designs have at least some merit, and really the only thing I object to is when Woo calls their model a "true" balanced amp when it really isn't. In my mind that's different from Violectric saying "4 (internal) amplifiers for true balanced output". It may be a technicality, but one of those statements is true while the other isn't. 
 
Dec 8, 2014 at 2:24 PM Post #1,010 of 5,977
I discussed with Fried about the 2 gang volume pot issue in Oct after I opened my V281 case.  He shared his view point as below.
 
"We share the opinion that balanced signals INSIDE an item are good for nothing but only generate costs.
The reason for balanced signals is the noise immunity, to ensure this the so called CMRR (common-mode rejection ratio) shall be at least 40 dB (factor 100), otherwise balanced signals make no sense.
For a minimum of 40 dB CMRR at least 1 % tolerance components are necessary.
This can be achieved with ease for resistors,
with big effort for only few capacitors,
never (!!) for turn-style potentiometers.

So, having balanced signals inside a unit with an attenuator makes no sense, is a waste resources and only a marketing gag."
 
I was disappointed in the beginning because I was told V281 is a "true balance" amp.  Later on, I am happy with the amp even it is not a "true" one, it works great with my HD800.  "True balanced" or not is no longer my concern now.
 
Dec 8, 2014 at 3:18 PM Post #1,011 of 5,977
Yeah it's an interesting discussion but really not anything to worry too much about, as was done in the old days around HeadFi where balanced was often discussed as the pinnacle of system configurations. 
 
For example, Yulong has their A28 amp (fully balanced) positioned lower in the lineup than their A18 which is not balanced. And rightfully so based on my time with each unit. 
 
Dec 8, 2014 at 3:20 PM Post #1,012 of 5,977
  Later on, I am happy with the amp even it is not a "true" one, it works great with my HD800.  "True balanced" or not is no longer my concern now.

 
I think Fried has enough experience to avoid just ticking boxes, keeping the overall design reasonable (if 40V max output can be called reasonable :wink:
 
Point is, the V281 is an excellent amp. Fully balanced or not does not matter in the end, it does what its intended to do: produce very good output with a really wide range of headphones.
 
Dec 8, 2014 at 6:24 PM Post #1,013 of 5,977
Hi Guys,
 
I didn't get any response from the other thread so posting over here as I think will get better response. Currently I have changed my mind going down the streamer route so thinking of getting a better dedicated DAC for now.
 
Current Setup
V281
HD800
Rega Apollo R
MacBook with HRT streamer ii
 
 
DAC options under consideration
Rega DAC
Yulong D18
Schiit Bifrost Uber
 
 
I need something that will have an excellent synergy between the gear I possess and any other suggestions that may work best with this setup.
 
 
Thanks
 
Dec 8, 2014 at 7:59 PM Post #1,014 of 5,977
  Hi Guys,
 
I didn't get any response from the other thread so posting over here as I think will get better response. Currently I have changed my mind going down the streamer route so thinking of getting a better dedicated DAC for now.
 
Current Setup
V281
HD800
Rega Apollo R
MacBook with HRT streamer ii
 
 
DAC options under consideration
Rega DAC
Yulong D18
Schiit Bifrost Uber
 
 
I need something that will have an excellent synergy between the gear I possess and any other suggestions that may work best with this setup.
 
 
Thanks

 
I would avoid the D18 as it is already a very warm amp and lacks that detail up top.   I have the DA8 which is more neutral (but slightly warm still) and pairs nicely with the V281 for the HD800.
 
Dec 8, 2014 at 8:04 PM Post #1,015 of 5,977
  Hi Guys,
 
I didn't get any response from the other thread so posting over here as I think will get better response. Currently I have changed my mind going down the streamer route so thinking of getting a better dedicated DAC for now.
 
Current Setup
V281
HD800
Rega Apollo R
MacBook with HRT streamer ii
 
 
DAC options under consideration
Rega DAC
Yulong D18
Schiit Bifrost Uber
 
 
I need something that will have an excellent synergy between the gear I possess and any other suggestions that may work best with this setup.
 
 
Thanks


I would add the x-sabre to under consideration.   Outstanding dac but I have no experience with HD800.
 
Dec 9, 2014 at 3:26 AM Post #1,018 of 5,977
Hi Guys,

I didn't get any response from the other thread so posting over here as I think will get better response. Currently I have changed my mind going down the streamer route so thinking of getting a better dedicated DAC for now.

Current Setup
V281
HD800
Rega Apollo R
MacBook with HRT streamer ii


DAC options under consideration
Rega DAC
Yulong D18
Schiit Bifrost Uber


I need something that will have an excellent synergy between the gear I possess and any other suggestions that may work best with this setup.


Thanks


Audiolab 8200CD or M-DAC is my recommendation. Has 7 interchangeable filters, including Minimum Phase filter. Way better than the Rega DAC IMHO.
 
Dec 9, 2014 at 5:10 AM Post #1,020 of 5,977
   
Why wouldn't you consider the v800 from Violectric while you own the v281 yourself? I have the combo and it's really good.

 
Thanks for everyone's input.
 
Good question navi. Well can you please comment on whether you are using HD800 with your V800 setup and hows the synergy with everything in action.
 
Thanks
 

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