When they see a return label being processed that’s usually when they initiate a refund. Amazon is a lot better with returns and refunds. We were talking about small mom/pap stores, distributors. In US it’s less of an issue but I keep hearing about those shady business from EU or other places. Which is weird bc I thought that customer protection laws are more strictly enforced in EU…
Vinyl Corner. Music, Gear, Experiences.
- Thread starter FYFL
- Start date
BTW.
At what sound levels do you guys usually listen to music. On stereo and headphones.
If I am doing something else or just chilling with a glass of holly water, volume is at moderate levels. I would say 85-89dB (both spks and hp.
But I really like to crank it up when I’m really into it or putting a record through its paces to see what it can do.
Then it’s around 90dB on hp and 95dB (or more) on spks system.
At what sound levels do you guys usually listen to music. On stereo and headphones.
If I am doing something else or just chilling with a glass of holly water, volume is at moderate levels. I would say 85-89dB (both spks and hp.
But I really like to crank it up when I’m really into it or putting a record through its paces to see what it can do.
Then it’s around 90dB on hp and 95dB (or more) on spks system.
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MisterMudd
1000+ Head-Fier
70-80dB headphones and 80dB+ speakers. I tend to rock harder on 2-channel. Sometimes MUCH harder!
Are you working while listening to say HP? Or those volume level ranges are used for strictly listening sessions?
![]eep](https://cdn.head-fi.org/avatars/m/139/139747.jpg?1273084439){kind=avatar}
]eep
Headphoneus Supremus
Listening fatigue, that's a hard question. I used to get that on my PC with headphones. I used to sit all day with headphones on. Good headphones. Improvements in the soundcard or later headphone amp made it less.
From what I learned in school and translated in practice is that listening fatigue is caused by too much energy. Notice that I don't say volume. Force=mass x aceleration. That means acelleration causes fatigue as much as mass. If I translate that to sound physics that means mass equals how much volume you are moving and acelleration means not just high frequency but the shape of your (compound) waveform. The waveform is the total of sinus + overtones + non-harmonics. The energy is the surface between your x-axis and waveform. The acelleration graph is the integral of velocity (of velocity is the derivative of acelleration). Loud peaks, transients and distortion are fatiguing.
Now as you know, distortion can be harmonic and non-harmonic. Distortion (creates or better
-contains- a lot of energy. And increased volume causes transducers to create even more distortion. Not even linear but exponential. So does increasing the volume cause exponentially more fatigue.
What I learned in ergonomics is that if you work all day 8 hours, you shouldn't exceed a certain noise level. Weighted in dB(A). If you increase the level by 3dB (double the energy) you should only be exposed 4 hours. Another 3dB and 2 hours. So roughly you can say to keep your hearing safe what you can listen to all day, if you double the perceived loudness meaning +10dB you should only be exposed less than 1 hour.
So, loud volumes in itself causes fatigue and distortion caused by low quality amplification and transducers cause fatigue.
Now what we care about is: listening. Listening means gathering information. Noise and distortion is the opposite of information. And noise suppresses the information. We don't want that. So what do we do to try to get all the information that is in the signal: we turn up the volume. Now we can hear most of the information even though it is veiled by noise. At the cost of damage to our hearing and your brain needing to focus on the filtering out the information from all the distracting noise.
So, is turning up the volume the solution? It's *a* solution, but it does come at a cost. It's like fighting the symptoms instead of the cause. You need to fix the cause or at least improve conditions. So, how do we do that?
Use a better source, use better amplification, use better transducers. If you ever heard a tube amplifier you will notice that you don't have to cranck up the volume to be able to hear more information. It sounds 'good' even at low volume. Also using better transducers that sound better at low levels ie: have less friction. Imagine tough membrane suspension and heavy membranes, they need a good kick before they get going. Compare that to an electrostatic membrane. They are like ointment to your ears as they seem to be floating in space. You hear every nuance effortlessly.
And now to the final question. Does vinyl help fight listening fatigue? Yes it does, as long as your vinyl surface is ok. Not worn, dirty or otherwise impaired causing noise. Also, as you can see in the video from the Chech GZ Media factory I posted, mastering and cutting needs attention to dynamics. Our inner ear is digital (cochlea) but also analog. It can't make certain curves just like the stylus just can't make certain curves. If you avoid those you also avoid impossible energy peaks and distortion. Therefore, because analog tracing is more similar to the working of our ears there is more information transmitted at lower energy levels. And therefore less fatigue.
In short: vinyl sounds better, you hear more music so you don't have to turn it up so loud (louder than necessary) so you can listen without fatigue. Fatigue means your brain is processing instead of entering different state of consciousness. Stress instead of relaxation.
From what I learned in school and translated in practice is that listening fatigue is caused by too much energy. Notice that I don't say volume. Force=mass x aceleration. That means acelleration causes fatigue as much as mass. If I translate that to sound physics that means mass equals how much volume you are moving and acelleration means not just high frequency but the shape of your (compound) waveform. The waveform is the total of sinus + overtones + non-harmonics. The energy is the surface between your x-axis and waveform. The acelleration graph is the integral of velocity (of velocity is the derivative of acelleration). Loud peaks, transients and distortion are fatiguing.
Now as you know, distortion can be harmonic and non-harmonic. Distortion (creates or better
-contains- a lot of energy. And increased volume causes transducers to create even more distortion. Not even linear but exponential. So does increasing the volume cause exponentially more fatigue.What I learned in ergonomics is that if you work all day 8 hours, you shouldn't exceed a certain noise level. Weighted in dB(A). If you increase the level by 3dB (double the energy) you should only be exposed 4 hours. Another 3dB and 2 hours. So roughly you can say to keep your hearing safe what you can listen to all day, if you double the perceived loudness meaning +10dB you should only be exposed less than 1 hour.
So, loud volumes in itself causes fatigue and distortion caused by low quality amplification and transducers cause fatigue.
Now what we care about is: listening. Listening means gathering information. Noise and distortion is the opposite of information. And noise suppresses the information. We don't want that. So what do we do to try to get all the information that is in the signal: we turn up the volume. Now we can hear most of the information even though it is veiled by noise. At the cost of damage to our hearing and your brain needing to focus on the filtering out the information from all the distracting noise.
So, is turning up the volume the solution? It's *a* solution, but it does come at a cost. It's like fighting the symptoms instead of the cause. You need to fix the cause or at least improve conditions. So, how do we do that?
Use a better source, use better amplification, use better transducers. If you ever heard a tube amplifier you will notice that you don't have to cranck up the volume to be able to hear more information. It sounds 'good' even at low volume. Also using better transducers that sound better at low levels ie: have less friction. Imagine tough membrane suspension and heavy membranes, they need a good kick before they get going. Compare that to an electrostatic membrane. They are like ointment to your ears as they seem to be floating in space. You hear every nuance effortlessly.
And now to the final question. Does vinyl help fight listening fatigue? Yes it does, as long as your vinyl surface is ok. Not worn, dirty or otherwise impaired causing noise. Also, as you can see in the video from the Chech GZ Media factory I posted, mastering and cutting needs attention to dynamics. Our inner ear is digital (cochlea) but also analog. It can't make certain curves just like the stylus just can't make certain curves. If you avoid those you also avoid impossible energy peaks and distortion. Therefore, because analog tracing is more similar to the working of our ears there is more information transmitted at lower energy levels. And therefore less fatigue.
In short: vinyl sounds better, you hear more music so you don't have to turn it up so loud (louder than necessary) so you can listen without fatigue. Fatigue means your brain is processing instead of entering different state of consciousness. Stress instead of relaxation.
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2nd harmonic distortion + smoother clipping + distortion looks closer to how our ear behaves + add vinyl with whatever it is that sounds more pleasant to our ear +
natural/correct time domain (timing accuracy criteria of human hearing. Applies to speakers and maybe digital processing) and correcting for it with problematic reflections that amplify the problem + comfortable listening levels (so it doesn’t hurt you) with occasional reference volume levels … is within reason (short periods of time) = less fatigue for me personally.
Experiencing music through headphones is a little…….. totally different experience. But some of above still applies. In my experience.
natural/correct time domain (timing accuracy criteria of human hearing. Applies to speakers and maybe digital processing) and correcting for it with problematic reflections that amplify the problem + comfortable listening levels (so it doesn’t hurt you) with occasional reference volume levels … is within reason (short periods of time) = less fatigue for me personally.
Experiencing music through headphones is a little…….. totally different experience. But some of above still applies. In my experience.
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Originally scheduled for Feb. The Fantastic Expedition of Dillard Clark (Intervention) will be here earlier. Much, much earlier. But you didn’t hear it from me.
Also limited NIN is suppose to get here soon. Not sure what title or exactly when is the official release date. Should get it next Wednesday I hope.
MisterMudd
1000+ Head-Fier
No work, just pleasure listening. I'm in my late 60's and still trying to preserve what hearing I have left. Have gotten used to lower listening levels the last several years. Sounds good to me. I remember taking a nice portable stacked rig with over ear cans when I met some friends skiing in 2015. I would let them try it, then at some point when they handed it back I would put it on to see how loud they were listening. Couldn't believe how loud they listened- like already hearing impaired! And I was the one working loud environments for a living. Just got a pair of new Wharfedale Lintons, so I am rocking out to higher listening levels than normal cause it sounds so damn good. Molly Hatchet vinyl demands louder volume. Rock on!
The Jester
1000+ Head-Fier
From what I’ve gleaned so far digital has issues with transient timing and small signal accuracy which is not present in Vinyl replay, up to a certain level the brain can correct these and other minor distortions but constantly correcting could be one cause of listener fatigue, that’s why input from Vinyl aficionados is useful …
MisterMudd
1000+ Head-Fier
Exactly what vinyl and my Wharfedale Lintons provide. Exquisitely stated sir!Listening fatigue, that's a hard question. I used to get that on my PC with headphones. I used to sit all day with headphones on. Good headphones. Improvements in the soundcard or later headphone amp made it less.
From what I learned in school and translated in practice is that listening fatigue is caused by too much energy. Notice that I don't say volume. Force=mass x aceleration. That means acelleration causes fatigue as much as mass. If I translate that to sound physics that means mass equals how much volume you are moving and acelleration means not just high frequency but the shape of your (compound) waveform. The waveform is the total of sinus + overtones + non-harmonics. The energy is the surface between your x-axis and waveform. The acelleration graph is the integral of velocity (of velocity is the derivative of acelleration). Loud peaks, transients and distortion are fatiguing.
Now as you know, distortion can be harmonic and non-harmonic. Distortion (creates or better
What I learned in ergonomics is that if you work all day 8 hours, you shouldn't exceed a certain noise level. Weighted in dB(A). If you increase the level by 3dB (double the energy) you should only be exposed 4 hours. Another 3dB and 2 hours. So roughly you can say to keep your hearing safe what you can listen to all day, if you double the perceived loudness meaning +10dB you should only be exposed less than 1 hour.
So, loud volumes in itself causes fatigue and distortion caused by low quality amplification and transducers cause fatigue.
Now what we care about is: listening. Listening means gathering information. Noise and distortion is the opposite of information. And noise suppresses the information. We don't want that. So what do we do to try to get all the information that is in the signal: we turn up the volume. Now we can hear most of the information even though it is veiled by noise. At the cost of damage to our hearing and your brain needing to focus on the filtering out the information from all the distracting noise.
So, is turning up the volume the solution? It's *a* solution, but it does come at a cost. It's like fighting the symptoms instead of the cause. You need to fix the cause or at least improve conditions. So, how do we do that?
Use a better source, use better amplification, use better transducers. If you ever heard a tube amplifier you will notice that you don't have to cranck up the volume to be able to hear more information. It sounds 'good' even at low volume. Also using better transducers that sound better at low levels ie: have less friction. Imagine tough membrane suspension and heavy membranes, they need a good kick before they get going. Compare that to an electrostatic membrane. They are like ointment to your ears as they seem to be floating in space. You hear every nuance effortlessly.
And now to the final question. Does vinyl help fight listening fatigue? Yes it does, as long as your vinyl surface is ok. Not worn, dirty or otherwise impaired causing noise. Also, as you can see in the video from the Chech GZ Media factory I posted, mastering and cutting needs attention to dynamics. Our inner ear is digital (cochlea) but also analog. It can't make certain curves just like the stylus just can't make certain curves. If you avoid those you also avoid impossible energy peaks and distortion. Therefore, because analog tracing is more similar to the working of our ears there is more information transmitted at lower energy levels. And therefore less fatigue.
In short: vinyl sounds better, you hear more music so you don't have to turn it up so loud (louder than necessary) so you can listen without fatigue. Fatigue means your brain is processing instead of entering different state of consciousness. Stress instead of relaxation.
And yet, we still don’t fully understand how we hear, process and understand sound.
]eep
Headphoneus Supremus
On my speakers I hardly ever get above 80dB. That's what I just measured. I only got to 75dB actually and that was pretty loud already.
A other thing that I discussed in others threads already is that an R2R DAC, unfiltered and very simple output stage (only an I/V) has the same effect: you can hear all the details but since timing is unimpaired it's a lot easier on the ears. I never got listening fatigue even with headphones.
The usual bs is that R2R sounds rolled of, but that's not true when unfiltered. Because there's no pregringing the highs are less multiplexed /smeared so there's less of it, but what there is is more accurate. Delta sigma dacs also create a lot of supersonic noise that needs lots of filtering.
A other thing that I discussed in others threads already is that an R2R DAC, unfiltered and very simple output stage (only an I/V) has the same effect: you can hear all the details but since timing is unimpaired it's a lot easier on the ears. I never got listening fatigue even with headphones.
The usual bs is that R2R sounds rolled of, but that's not true when unfiltered. Because there's no pregringing the highs are less multiplexed /smeared so there's less of it, but what there is is more accurate. Delta sigma dacs also create a lot of supersonic noise that needs lots of filtering.
diracas
New Head-Fier
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2014
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Just curious... What are the pre-amps, amps at this incredible setup?
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