[heidimilk]

As for a cleaner I use the vinyl styl, got it off Amazon about $70.

It has worked very good for me. Not as good as a vacuum cleaner, but it does the job if you change the fluid before it gets too dirty. I have done over 150 records and some were filthy. They're all pretty good to great now.

You can spin a couple times in one direction, then flip the record and spin a couple more times. This way it cleans in both directions.

Edit: also get a good stylus cleaner.

What do you think about the zero dust fir cleaning the stylus?
I saw many good reviews on it but I'm a bit skeptical.
Have you tried it?

 

[megabigeye]

What do you think about record cleaning machines?

I use the semi-DIY VinylVac. I can't comment on its performance versus other cleaners, but it's taken some of my unplayable records and made them sound quite good. Some Vinyl Guru Reviewer High Muckety-Muck seemed to think it works pretty well (though he never compared it to other cleaners, which seems like a massive oversight).
Be sure to get some anti-static sleeves, too. Nothing like vacuuming your vinyl only to have it covered in paper dust as soon as you put it back in the sleeve. I use MoFi Original Master Sleeves.

Take note that no cleaning machine will restore a scratched record. That sounds obvious, but if you're expecting to go from clicks, pops, and skips to audiophile purity, you'll only be disappointed.

 

[heidimilk]

Nice, you are on your way ..... we all have a steep learning curve in the beginning
$7 for an LP in Switzerland?? wow. I'd of thought they would be more based on the strength of your currency and high COL/Cost of living, even for used LP.

Well, it can be an expensive hobby, which is why many of us find "more economical" sources to buy from. Likewise, since I buy 90% used records, I DO buy the occasional "special reissues" or find a 1st pressing of a Neil Young or a Mono Box set of Beatles(awesome BTW) to blow my mind.

I buy and find (even on the street!!) dirty records.
But as long as there are no scratches or "white lines" in the grooves (this means it has either been played to death or the stylus/cartridge was not aligned properly) they can be played.

(my segue back to your ??): ) I use a vinyl cleaner b/c of the fact that 90% of my LPs are dirty. Dirty record = dirty stylus = distortion from the souce. This distortion multiplies exponentially from stylus to cartridge to coil to cartridge to tonearm and on and on and on ....

So I decided to invest in a very good LP cleaner, the Okki Nokki 2. Yes, it was $500, but a wise choice b/c it cleans all the old LPs.
And unfortunately, that was the cheapest model for a good cleaner. The next lowest cost in the US is the Spin Clean, for under $100: all manual. It is a great tool
to get somebody into the hobby.

But the Beauty of the Okki Nokki, is that the machine spins bidirectionally, not just one direction. Forward and reverse allows the scrubber to scrub both directions.
if you are just scrubbing one direction, there is likely debris left behind in the groove IMO. Most of the more expensive cleaners mostly only do one direction.
One direction for a $1000: gimme an elfin break.

Do you think getting a tube pre-amp is worth it?

 

[fotomeow]

You need to study the parts on a cartridge and stylus. It sounds like you are the one that's never replaced a stylus on a cartridge in your life. It does not take a skilled technician to do it.
You are only talking about cheap Shure cartridges that. We were talking about cartridges costing over $1000.

More importantly, since when is the cantilever part of the cartridge? You can't change the cantilever. The entire assembly, diamond point and cantilever is only available as a single part and it's all part of the stylus, not the cartridge. It is not user-severable, nor would anyone ever contemplate replacing a cantilever without replacing the diamond.

As I said before, in our conversation, since Heidi Milk is a newbie who asked "what is a stylus?", cartridge was being used as a general term, as opposed to the stylus.
Remember, this thread is for the benefits of HeidiMilk, not yourself. I am "talking" to HeidiMilk at their (beginner) level of understanding. you can see a priorpost by someone who talks about the need to match cartridge gain to preamp gain. What? What for ? That is silly Schiit when the OP himself is still learning the parts of cartridge, stylus, etc.

I mean, would you go up to a cat and try to explain quantum physics to them? I guess you would. Good luck with that.
No, we need to meet HeidiMilk at HIS level of understanding, not your level of understanding, in order to help give HeidiMilk info so that he can make his own decisions.
Again,, this thread is not about you, this thread is about helping HeidiMilk.

The rest of the stylus is the plastic body made to hold the cantilever and diamond, and sometimes a gold tube to mount into the cartridge. The cantilever is attached to the tube. The entire assembly is shaped and long enough to insert into the cartridge, where the end of the tube plugs into the magnet suspension system. The stylus is all one piece and is not user-serviceable. For some NOS cartridge/stylus designs not made anymore, there are some phono cartridge experts (often jewelers desiring a side-business) who will replace the diamond on the existing cantilever - but it's never done the other way around. They typically grind the diamond off of an existing cantilever, then add a brand new diamond and make the cuts for elliptical, Shibata, or whatever.

Those are Shure replacement styli made by LP Gear. The cantilever is that silver tube with the pointy-thing on the end (the diamond needle). The gray and red portions in each are the plastic housings, meant to attach to the cartridge and properly align the cantilever housing into the cartridge, depending on the particular manufacturer's design. Audio-Technica styli look a lot different, for instance. The gold/brass square tube is what actually inserts into the cartridge. The cartridge is not anywhere to be found in these pics. You also cannot purchase any of the separate parts that make up the stylus - except, as noted above, if you find a jeweler willing to grind off the existing diamond from an existing cantilever and replace it. That's usually only because the cantilever was something special such as boron, sapphire, etc.

Just so you know, I bought my first high-end turntable in 1972. Yeah, I've been messing with phono cartridges and turntables for a little while. You should try not to judge someone's equipment from their signature. I started around here long enough ago that phono was out of the question. Now that it's back, maybe I should change that. However, you are welcome to look at the giant phono thread here on Head-Fi. A pic of one of my turntables is in the middle of that thread somewhere, if you insist on some documentation.

Yes, and it looks like you are still "messing with phono cartridges and turntables",
From https://www.sound-smith.com

Cartridge Rebuilding / Retipping
Phono Cartridge Rebuilding and Stylus Retipping Services
Thank you for your interest in our cartridge rebuilding services. You have arrived at the right place.

Why? If you read the below, you will understand why. If you want to try someone else first for cartridge repairs, you are of course free to do so, BUT, do not send it to us after you are dissatisfied. We do not clean up after someone else has butchered your valuable cartridge. Our time is valuable, and is dedicated to our good customers who value what we do.

Peter Ledermann has been designing his own cartridges and rebuilding cartridges of all brands for more than 45 years. He is widely considered a world class expert in the field; not to be confused with new-comers or those who recently believe they have suddenly developed these delicate surgical skills and deep knowledge of cartridge design and repair as it relates to rebuild performance."

I use the semi-DIY VinylVac. I can't comment on its performance versus other cleaners, but it's taken some of my unplayable records and made them sound quite good. Some Vinyl Guru Reviewer High Muckety-Muck seemed to think it works pretty well (though he never compared it to other cleaners, which seems like a massive oversight).
Be sure to get some anti-static sleeves, too. Nothing like vacuuming your vinyl only to have it covered in paper dust as soon as you put it back in the sleeve. I use MoFi Original Master Sleeves.

Good point, that is what I do. If I have a dirty LP, then the LP inner sleeve is likely dirty as well. No sense putting a clean LP back into a dirty sleeve.

Do you think getting a tube pre-amp is worth it?

I ONLY use tubed preAmps for my home stereo and HPs. IMO, a tubed preAMp produces the best sound.
IME, tubes provide a sense of realness, of live sound, or "being in the room" with the artist. I prefer the tonal density and sound staging that tubes offer, better than SS IMO. Tubes also allow a person to fine-tune the sound to your ear. Diff tubes have diff sounds. And even the same tube will sound differently for people with diff HPs. you know, that is why people have a few sets of their favorite tubes, and also 2-3 pairs of headphone, b/c you get diff sound with each combination. Thats the fun of this hobby for many of us. And it is also a journey for many of us. As we learn more about sound, equipment, we try this or try that. but just getting a simple tube preamp is a great place to start. Dont want to overwhelm you, just give you a sneak preview.

My home stereo and HP set up are both "hybrid" systems, tubes Pre and SS/Solid State Amp.
But that is only b/c of financial limits. IMO, and for many others, the "ultimate" system would be tubed Pre Amp AND tubed amp.But that gets very expensive very fast for a big home stereo. It is much more affordable to have tube pre and amp for HPs, but still spendy.

Are you asking about tube PreAmps specifically for:
1. HPs? eg. I started out with the Schiit Lyr 2 tube/hybrid HP amp. Now they are on the Lyr 3 model. but the "3" has pros/cons. eg only 1 tube (although it takes a 6SN7- a very well-regarded tube which I do like), it accepts a DAC or PHONO module. THis is great for someone on a budget who wants 2 functions from the bit: DAC and amp), but IMO it will not sound as good as a Lyr 2 b/c the "2" has 2 tubes (double triode tubes) AND has dedicated circuits for amp only. "Dedicated" units/amps/etc sound better than multipurpose units/amps/etc.
Lyr 2's generally sell for about $250 on the used market. I will be selling mine, since I just upgraded to the Schiit Mjolnir 2.

2. home stereo? many out there

3. or both? eg, Linear Tube Audio: https://www.lineartubeaudio.com
https://www.lineartubeaudio.com/products/microzotl-mz3

 

[tomb]

Yes, and it looks like you are still "messing with phono cartridges and turntables",
From https://www.sound-smith.com

Cartridge Rebuilding / Retipping
Phono Cartridge Rebuilding and Stylus Retipping Services
Thank you for your interest in our cartridge rebuilding services. You have arrived at the right place.

Why? If you read the below, you will understand why. If you want to try someone else first for cartridge repairs, you are of course free to do so, BUT, do not send it to us after you are dissatisfied. We do not clean up after someone else has butchered your valuable cartridge. Our time is valuable, and is dedicated to our good customers who value what we do.

Peter Ledermann has been designing his own cartridges and rebuilding cartridges of all brands for more than 45 years. He is widely considered a world class expert in the field; not to be confused with new-comers or those who recently believe they have suddenly developed these delicate surgical skills and deep knowledge of cartridge design and repair as it relates to rebuild performance."
[/SIZE]


</snip>

Way to go. When all else fails, put it in large, bold type.

You still did not explain:
1. Why you think you can't change the stylus on a cartridge.
2. Why you think the cantilever is part of the cartridge instead of the stylus.
3. Why you have never heard of the T4P standard, where every cartridge was built in an identical format.
4. Why you disagree with the supposition that maybe 3/4 of a cartridge/stylus sound quality is in the stylus assembly, not the cartridge.
5. Finally, somehow you now think that replacing a stylus is somehow cartridge repair.

The only example where you can't replace the stylus on your own is with moving coil cartridges. There, because of the tiny coils used on the cantilever mechanism (the coil moves, not the magnet), it becomes impossible to separate the stylus from the cartridge. However, moving coil cartridges are typically priced in the $thousands. With a few exceptions, they are not representative of most cartridges. They even require separate amplification, beyond the normal phono pre-amp and RIAA equalization.

Try again.

 

[fotomeow]

Do you think getting a tube pre-amp is worth it?

Oh, the other thing I was going to say is that I use the Lyr 2 works really really well as a tubed PreAmp for a small system, like a desktop system or a system for a room up to about 18x18 ft max. E.g, I do this with a pair of AudioEngine 5+ ACTIVE speakers with built in SS amplification (400$).
And then you can roll tubes in and out of the Lyr to fine-tune the sound. E.g. pairs of tubes costing $25-100 a pair would be an appropriate part of the budget.
Or the Lyr 3 with the DAC or Phono module into active speakers (which are getting better all the time, and more and more manufacturers) would be great for that level of budget.

 

[heidimilk]

Oh, the other thing I was going to say is that I use the Lyr 2 works really really well as a tubed PreAmp for a small system, like a desktop system or a system for a room up to about 18x18 ft max. E.g, I do this with a pair of AudioEngine 5+ ACTIVE speakers with built in SS amplification (400$).
And then you can roll tubes in and out of the Lyr to fine-tune the sound. E.g. pairs of tubes costing $25-100 a pair would be an appropriate part of the budget.
Or the Lyr 3 with the DAC or Phono module into active speakers (which are getting better all the time, and more and more manufacturers) would be great for that level of budget.

Hmm.. I'm thinking about the Tube Box S from Pro-Ject.
You can also roll the tubes and I think it's good enough for me.
In the end I really care more about the music than the quality.
As speakers I'm getting the JBL lsr 305 Mk2 also heard good things about them.
When do you think of this setup?

Edit: I changed my mind after further investigation. I won't buy the Pro-Ject TT as I think humming is a big issue with it... If I'll get a TT from another company, is better to add a PreAmp from the same company?

 

[fotomeow]

Hmm.. I'm thinking about the Tube Box S from Pro-Ject.
You can also roll the tubes and I think it's good enough for me.
In the end I really care more about the music than the quality.
As speakers I'm getting the JBL lsr 305 Mk2 also heard good things about them.
When do you think of this setup?

Edit: I changed my mind after further investigation. I won't buy the Pro-Ject TT as I think humming is a big issue with it... If I'll get a TT from another company, is better to add a PreAmp from the same company?

1. Ya, that sounds like a good little set up to get you going. I like the Project DS with the 2 tubes. IMO< the PreAmp/Amp are the heart and soul of a system. And the Project DS@ allows you 2 12AX7 tubes to play with. The tubes can also tame the high frequencies of the JBLs if needed. (my ears are sensitive to horn tweeters, these have a dome tweeter with some horn design/tech. the horn design can be too piercing to me. but with tubes, you should be ok if that happens.
I also like the options on the DS2 and the JBL speakers. eg. subsonic filter, gain/capacitance options, options on the JBL for near field listening if the speakers are near the wall or on table, etc. Those little tweaks, used all together, will allow you to focus on a sound you like.

2. I generally recommend for someone starting out in this hobby to stay with the same brands if possible from source to pre/amp to speakers. But you don't have to. If you decide to mix brands, you have to just make sure the brands electronics work with each other well. e.g, impedance matching, gain matching.
But if you decide not to go with the Project TT, IMO, that is fine, just do a little bit more search. There are many good entry level TTs out that at the same price point as the Project Debut. But, if you wouldn't mind, I would be curious to see the reviews that say the Debut hums, and the phono stage that they used with it. B/c, as we've talked about, the audio pieces need to match electronically, and for that, we need to look at the specs.

3. here is a link to Audio Advisor, an online store that I buy from sometimes. they have good prices for entry and mid-budget TTs.
https://www.audioadvisor.com/products.asp?dept=78#/sort:ss_price_min:asc

Rega are good. the Marantz is prolly good. NAD prolly good. But I really like Music Hall- Big Bang for buck. Designed in the US, and I think made in US too (but not sure). The owner of Music Hall is known for quality at affordable pricing.

other link for my "go-to" website for general info:
https://www.musicdirect.com/equipme...SC&page=1&pagesize=24&c1=tab-products&c2=grid

they often have great deals on sale or clearance.

 

[heidimilk]

1. Ya, that sounds like a good little set up to get you going. I like the Project DS with the 2 tubes. IMO< the PreAmp/Amp are the heart and soul of a system. And the Project DS@ allows you 2 12AX7 tubes to play with. The tubes can also tame the high frequencies of the JBLs if needed. (my ears are sensitive to horn tweeters, these have a dome tweeter with some horn design/tech. the horn design can be too piercing to me. but with tubes, you should be ok if that happens.
I also like the options on the DS2 and the JBL speakers. eg. subsonic filter, gain/capacitance options, options on the JBL for near field listening if the speakers are near the wall or on table, etc. Those little tweaks, used all together, will allow you to focus on a sound you like.

2. I generally recommend for someone starting out in this hobby to stay with the same brands if possible from source to pre/amp to speakers. But you don't have to. If you decide to mix brands, you have to just make sure the brands electronics work with each other well. e.g, impedance matching, gain matching.
But if you decide not to go with the Project TT, IMO, that is fine, just do a little bit more search. There are many good entry level TTs out that at the same price point as the Project Debut. But, if you wouldn't mind, I would be curious to see the reviews that say the Debut hums, and the phono stage that they used with it. B/c, as we've talked about, the audio pieces need to match electronically, and for that, we need to look at the specs.

3. here is a link to Audio Advisor, an online store that I buy from sometimes. they have good prices for entry and mid-budget TTs.
https://www.audioadvisor.com/products.asp?dept=78#/sort:ss_price_min:asc

Rega are good. the Marantz is prolly good. NAD prolly good. But I really like Music Hall- Big Bang for buck. Designed in the US, and I think made in US too (but not sure). The owner of Music Hall is known for quality at affordable pricing.

other link for my "go-to" website for general info:
https://www.musicdirect.com/equipment/turntables/?category=Turntables&sort=sitePrice|ASC&page=1&pagesize=24&c1=tab-products&c2=grid

they often have great deals on sale or clearance.

Thanks for the reply.

Good thing you told me about the piercing highs in the JBL's as I'm also sensitive to them...
Any recommendations for Active Monitors in the same price-range?

Edit: the DS2 is a bit out of my price-range;
https://www.digitec.ch/de/s1/produc...ae-8353025?supplier=406802&tagIds=591-592-548
This is the one I was looking at, I guess it'll not synergize as well with the JBL's...

I was considering the Rega RP3, but it seems like the ortofon cartridges won't fit without adding a spacer (which can't be added to the 2016 version).

So you are saying I won't get any humming problems with e.g. a Music Hall mmf 2.3, if setup correctly?

 

[fotomeow]

Thanks for the reply.

Good thing you told me about the piercing highs in the JBL's as I'm also sensitive to them...
Any recommendations for Active Monitors in the same price-range?

Edit: the DS2 is a bit out of my price-range;
https://www.digitec.ch/de/s1/produc...ae-8353025?supplier=406802&tagIds=591-592-548
This is the one I was looking at, I guess it'll not synergize as well with the JBL's...

I was considering the Rega RP3, but it seems like the ortofon cartridges won't fit without adding a spacer (which can't be added to the 2016 version).

So you are saying I won't get any humming problems with e.g. a Music Hall mmf 2.3, if setup correctly?

Just to clarify, horns CAN sound piercing, but are not always piercing. That was just meant to be fyi. Has anyone complained of piercing form the JBLs?

Pardon, I meant the S2. The S2 looks good.
The Rega's are also good. they also make good cartridges for entry level. I would feel good about that.
Does Rega have a small tube phono stage like the Project S2?

I hope you don't get discouraged. Learning about and discussing these things is part of the process. In the end, though, you will be happy with waht you buy.
Its a journey .....

 

[heidimilk]

Just to clarify, horns CAN sound piercing, but are not always piercing. That was just meant to be fyi. Has anyone complained of piercing form the JBLs?

Pardon, I meant the S2. The S2 looks good.
The Rega's are also good. they also make good cartridges for entry level. I would feel good about that.
Does Rega have a small tube phono stage like the Project S2?

I hope you don't get discouraged. Learning about and discussing these things is part of the process. In the end, though, you will be happy with waht you buy.
Its a journey .....

Rega doesn't have tube preamps.
Btw I'm everything but discouraged!
I'm really looking forward to having a perfect setup for myself and I want to make sure I buy the best things I can afford.

What do you think of VTA, I would definitely buy the Rega RP3 if it wasn't for the unadjustable tonearm height...

 

[fotomeow]

Rega doesn't have tube preamps.
Btw I'm everything but discouraged!
I'm really looking forward to having a perfect setup for myself and I want to make sure I buy the best things I can afford.

What do you think of VTA, I would definitely buy the Rega RP3 if it wasn't for the unadjustable tonearm height...

Good! tonearm height becomes important if: you put a matt over your turntable for vibe reduction, or you want to change the platter, or your want to use and off-brand (eg other than Rega) cartridge. Entry level turntable have limited options. the higher the price, the more quality and options you generally get. Entry level TTs are designed to be easy set up. Basically, "plug and play". I think the limited tonearm height would be fine for you right now, as long as you stick with the Rega cartridge.

You can research what other Rega users do, but they prolly just keep it simple so that the tonearm height is not an issue.
Maybe research if Rega owners use the Project s2 or not. If you are using 2 diff brands with TT and phono stage, now is the time to make sure there is a proper electrical/gain match b/w the cartridge and the phono stage. eg. I'm not convinced that the ProJect "hum' is b/c of the Project. It could easily be a mismatch b/w their cartridge and their phonostage that is causing the hum. suggest you research this topic at this point.

 

[heidimilk]

Good! tonearm height becomes important if: you put a matt over your turntable for vibe reduction, or you want to change the platter, or your want to use and off-brand (eg other than Rega) cartridge. Entry level turntable have limited options. the higher the price, the more quality and options you generally get. Entry level TTs are designed to be easy set up. Basically, "plug and play". I think the limited tonearm height would be fine for you right now, as long as you stick with the Rega cartridge.

You can research what other Rega users do, but they prolly just keep it simple so that the tonearm height is not an issue.
Maybe research if Rega owners use the Project s2 or not. If you are using 2 diff brands with TT and phono stage, now is the time to make sure there is a proper electrical/gain match b/w the cartridge and the phono stage. eg. I'm not convinced that the ProJect "hum' is b/c of the Project. It could easily be a mismatch b/w their cartridge and their phonostage that is causing the hum. suggest you research this topic at this point.

They usually added spacers to the RP3, the 2016 however doesn't allow for this...

What are the specs I have to look for and compare on the TT, Pre and Cart?

 

[fotomeow]

start doing searches, eg like "cartridge phono stage matching". go to the Rega site and read what they have to say about it. same for Project. many articles out there.

 

[heidimilk]

start doing searches, eg like "cartridge phono stage matching". go to the Rega site and read what they have to say about it. same for Project. many articles out there.

Thanks again for all the advice!

I have another question regarding the JBL's, how is the bass?
Sometimes I listen to EDM and then I want some good bass, would I need a subwoofer?