[Modo]

I found one specific use for vinyl records. I like some rock albums that were mastered for digital with limited dynamic range (everything close to 0 dB). They sound pretty bad because it really kills any drums/bass impact. However, because of vinyl's physical limitations, you can not put everything up to 0 dB as the needle would skip. So some albums, e.g. Metallica's Load or most of System of a Down, sound much nicer -- despite the distortion -- from a black disc. It's a huge investment for a few albums, though. Everything else comes from CD or better for me.

 

[fotomeow]

I found one specific use for vinyl records. I like some rock albums that were mastered for digital with limited dynamic range (everything close to 0 dB). They sound pretty bad because it really kills any drums/bass impact. However, because of vinyl's physical limitations, you can not put everything up to 0 dB as the needle would skip. So some albums, e.g. Metallica's Load or most of System of a Down, sound much nicer -- despite the distortion -- from a black disc. It's a huge investment for a few albums, though. Everything else comes from CD or better for me.

Modo, did you mean, “ I DONT like rock albums that were mastered for digital” ?? O/w I don’t understand.

These days, ALL vinyl produced has some element of digital reproduction in the chain of production. I’ve heard this repeatedly from the pro music Master-ers, Producers, etc. Although it is getting better, it is just not the same as the vinyl that was produced Pre-1980 or so. Even the modern vinyl “direct to disc” still have an element of digital in the chain.

Prior to 1980, the chain of production fro vinyl was all analog from start to finish. This is considered a more pure form of analog, b/c the artist originally recorded their album on the old 1/4”, 1/2”, or even 1” tape. Then transferred the music to the vinyl disc from the ORIGINAL TAPES. No digital interventions, edits, etc. this is why most of us try to buy the “first pressings of the vinyl” since it is the most pure analog form that was intended by the band and their production team.

For example, I’ve heard the Beatles first LP pressings on a high end stereo. I about fell out of my effing chair! The soundstage that I heard perfectly mimicked the recording studio at Abby Road, if you’ve seen the pics, it’s a large studio they mostly used in the 60s. What I heard with my ears was the same picture I had in my head of them in the Abby studio. It is the closest we can get to being “in the room” with the Beatles as they recorded.

Another example, take a Bowie album from the 1970s, and it is analog to analog as I described above. But when we got into the 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, etc, and his albums were reproduced for CD, then digital got into the chain of production b/c of tech, and b/c of being cheaper.

But those CDs were not produced from “the original analog tapes”. They were produced most often from copies of the original tapes that then transferred to digital, which was then transferred to CD but with limited dynamic range, as Modo said. AND with “loudness wars”: where the engineers and producers of the reissue turn up the gain b/c they think that is what most consumers want. It’s a cheap way to add a sense of excitement to the sound, but sounds terrible. A well-recorded and produced LP does NOT have limited dynamic range. That is one advantage of LPs.

With modern vinyl reissues, sometimes the producers have the original tapes to work from, sometimes they don’t. Many of the original tapes have been lost, stolen, decomposed, molds, etc and are unusable. So they have to work from a derivative copy of the tapes- and many times the derivative copy isDigital. That is all they have to work with. One of the main reasons for limited dynamic range.

For me, I find the first pressings for best sound. But just as important for me is that I get to hear A LOT of music on vinyl BEFORE 1980 that was not even popular enough to transfer to CD. AFAIC, most of the best music ever recorded was Pre-1980. But you will never hear it b/c it never got put on CD.

 

[Modo]

Modo, did you mean, “ I DONT like rock albums that were mastered for digital” ?? O/w I don’t understand.

I like the music, but I don't like the limited dynamic range masters that are sometimes used for the digital release. A vinyl release forces a different master because physics. It literally requires that you keep some dynamics that are crucial in rock music. The difference is quite stunning with some extremely compressed albums, so I will take the high noise floor for those specific albums. Read up about the loudness wars, but beware: you can't unhear the crappiness once you know what to listen for.

 

[fotomeow]

I like the music, but I don't like the limited dynamic range masters that are sometimes used for the digital release. A vinyl release forces a different master because physics. It literally requires that you keep some dynamics that are crucial in rock music. The difference is quite stunning with some extremely compressed albums, so I will take the high noise floor for those specific albums. Read up about the loudness wars, but beware: you can't unhear the crappiness once you know what to listen for.

Ok, ow I understand what you are saying, and agree that a higher noise floor can be tolerated (or even embraced) for the benefit of rock music

 

[tomb]

<snip>


Change the whole cartridge. It shouldn’t be difficult compared to TTs costing over $1000, which are more technical.
FYI, you can just change the needle in cartridges, but the cartridge itself is engineered for best sound at that price level. Eg, the needle is not the only thing that determines SQ, it’s the cartridge too: type of material, weight, mass, density, etc


</snip>

I'm not so sure about that. If you go reading on a lot of the vinyl forums - like HiFiEngine, etc., there's a lot of talk that the stylus is 75% of the sound, if not more. There's even much speculation that the coils and magnets within the cartridge are the same throughout a mfr's lineup and only the stylus quality is used to discriminate the quality. Others have said that the perhaps the coils have a higher quality threshold in matching for the more expensive cartridges. IOW, lower cost cartridges are still the same coils and magnets, but maybe not matched as well as the more expensive ones. Some vinyl enthusiasts purchase multiple low-cost cartridges, find the ones with coils that are matched the best, then install an ultra-high quality stylus from Jico or similar. It ends up being as good or better than purchasing a high-end cartridge/stylus all at once.

And when I refer to stylus - once you have a needle with an optimum cut, the quality rests almost completely in the cantilever and the mounting.

 

[SoundDouble]

It doesn't cost nearly that much to enjoy records. Or maybe it's just my budget thinking.

I do enjoy playing records and also have a dap or phone depending on usage.

Cleaning the records and setting up is almost like meditation for me.

 

[fotomeow]

It doesn't cost nearly that much to enjoy records. Or maybe it's just my budget thinking.

I do enjoy playing records and also have a dap or phone depending on usage.

Cleaning the records and setting up is almost like meditation for me.

I agree about the budget aspect, good used records can be found for $5 or less. I don't understand how someone can throw down $20-30 for a new album.
Especially when it is likely not from the original tapes (see above posts).

 

[fotomeow]

I'm not so sure about that. If you go reading on a lot of the vinyl forums - like HiFiEngine, etc., there's a lot of talk that the stylus is 75% of the sound, if not more. There's even much speculation that the coils and magnets within the cartridge are the same throughout a mfr's lineup and only the stylus quality is used to discriminate the quality. Others have said that the perhaps the coils have a higher quality threshold in matching for the more expensive cartridges. IOW, lower cost cartridges are still the same coils and magnets, but maybe not matched as well as the more expensive ones. Some vinyl enthusiasts purchase multiple low-cost cartridges, find the ones with coils that are matched the best, then install an ultra-high quality stylus from Jico or similar. It ends up being as good or better than purchasing a high-end cartridge/stylus all at once.

And when I refer to stylus - once you have a needle with an optimum cut, the quality rests almost completely in the cantilever and the mounting.

Interesting. you say you disagree, but actually you mostly DO agree- read your post again.

1. We were using stylus vs cartridge above in general terms, not breakdown of cantilever, coil/spring, etc.
2. the mass, density, size of the actual cartridge (not cantilever, etc) DOES matter, and this is not only common sense, and manufacturers and professionals will tell you the same.
If the mass, density, size of the cartridge does not matter, then why don't they use the same cartridge mass, density, and size ALL the time? Aluminum is diff than wood, wood is diff than resin/plastic, etc
3. Even if you say that stylus is %75 of sound from the WHOLE cartridge, you are still agreeing that the cartridge-including cantilever, coil/spring, etc- has a 25% influence- in which you are agreeing with me.
4. Of course there is going to be some same parts used in a manufacturers cartridge line up, that is just general manufacturing, almost all manufacturers do it. But if they do, they will tweak another aspect of the cartridge. eg. keep the coil, change the cantilever, or .... change the stylus, keep, the cantilever but reduce the weight of the cartridge body by 10%, and on and on.
5. Have you ever changed a stylus before? thought so. Its not like making a PB and J sandwich. Its just "a little bit" harder . in fact, you have to have a skilled technician do this.
I love DIY, and DIY myself, but this is not something you whip out in 10 minutes
6. Well, while we're at it, why don't we add the sonic influence from matching the cartridge gain to the actual phono stage a person is using? This is a widely researched and accepted principle. IOWs, the Cartridge DOES have a large influence. And it is exactly the people that don't know this that suffer- b/c the quality of the music is largely influenced by matching gain b/w the two.
6. Dude, You don't even listen to vinyl according to your signature equipment !!! What? Maybe stick to what you know rather than speculate, bc it just misleads and misinforms others on the thread. I mean, whenever I see someone with over a couple thousand posts, more times that not, IME they spew opinions (that "I read somewhere on some forum"), NOT facts.

 

[megabigeye]

good used records can be found for $5 or less.

Really? Around here (Boston area) it seems like the only thing you find for less than $8 is pretty much trashed. $8-$12 is acceptable, and it's close to $20 for really good quality used stuff. At that point, might as well plunk down for new stuff. Anything above $29 makes me balk. Even some of the stuff I have that cost $10 or $12 starts out clean enough, but once you're a couple tracks in it can sound pretty rough. This is why I've pretty much given up on vinyl as an affordable audiophile pursuit.

 

[fotomeow]

Really? Around here (Boston area) it seems like the only thing you find for less than $8 is pretty much trashed. $8-$12 is acceptable, and it's close to $20 for really good quality used stuff. At that point, might as well plunk down for new stuff. Anything above $29 makes me balk. Even some of the stuff I have that cost $10 or $12 starts out clean enough, but once you're a couple tracks in it can sound pretty rough. This is why I've pretty much given up on vinyl as an affordable audiophile pursuit.

I get most of mine from local swap meets and the bargain section of a local LP seller.
I'm referring to the albums that I mostly buy- from the 60s-80s from lesser popular artists, or popular artists with a boatload of albums going back many decades:
Dylan, all the Jazz players- Miles Davis ,, Jimmy Smith, Lionel Hampton,, all the soul, the Temptations, and 80s fun: eg the Pointer Systers, classic rock and roll, some orchestral, eg Stravinsky, Tchaikovsky, etc.
And even Goodwill: Ive found first pressings of the Beatles, Neil Young. Fun/great soundtracks all the Quincy Jones produced albums, 2001 A Space Odyssey, The Return of the Body Snatchers, etc.

I prefer to shop locally to support my community, but someteims will buy off of the net b/c they are cheaper than the local.
e.g. the cost of living in high where I live, but someone selling a used mint condition album from The South (where the cost of living I lower) will get a sale from me, when their price is $10 plus $3 shipping, but my local store sells it for $20.
True, the cheaper albums take more energy to find. But you will find them. you can even start somewhere like "discogs.com", and see seom great deals on used records>
Find a dealer you like there, and buy a few LPs at a time to save on shipping

 

[heidimilk]

I agree about the budget aspect, good used records can be found for $5 or less. I don't understand how someone can throw down $20-30 for a new album.
Especially when it is likely not from the original tapes (see above posts).

I just bought my first record yesterday as I want to have something to listen to when I buy the setup.
Got it for 7.-, and is in very good condition (from what I can see )
What do you think about record cleaning machines?
I have a feeling they would give a lot of sound improvement for 500.- (?)

 

[fotomeow]

Nice, you are on your way ..... we all have a steep learning curve in the beginning
$7 for an LP in Switzerland?? wow. I'd of thought they would be more based on the strength of your currency and high COL/Cost of living, even for used LP.

Well, it can be an expensive hobby, which is why many of us find "more economical" sources to buy from. Likewise, since I buy 90% used records, I DO buy the occasional "special reissues" or find a 1st pressing of a Neil Young or a Mono Box set of Beatles(awesome BTW) to blow my mind.

I buy and find (even on the street!!) dirty records.
But as long as there are no scratches or "white lines" in the grooves (this means it has either been played to death or the stylus/cartridge was not aligned properly) they can be played.

(my segue back to your ??): ) I use a vinyl cleaner b/c of the fact that 90% of my LPs are dirty. Dirty record = dirty stylus = distortion from the souce. This distortion multiplies exponentially from stylus to cartridge to coil to cartridge to tonearm and on and on and on ....

So I decided to invest in a very good LP cleaner, the Okki Nokki 2. Yes, it was $500, but a wise choice b/c it cleans all the old LPs.
And unfortunately, that was the cheapest model for a good cleaner. The next lowest cost in the US is the Spin Clean, for under $100: all manual. It is a great tool
to get somebody into the hobby.

But the Beauty of the Okki Nokki, is that the machine spins bidirectionally, not just one direction. Forward and reverse allows the scrubber to scrub both directions.
if you are just scrubbing one direction, there is likely debris left behind in the groove IMO. Most of the more expensive cleaners mostly only do one direction.
One direction for a $1000: gimme an elfin break.

 

[heidimilk]

Nice, you are on your way ..... we all have a steep learning curve in the beginning
$7 for an LP in Switzerland?? wow. I'd of thought they would be more based on the strength of your currency and high COL/Cost of living, even for used LP.

Well, it can be an expensive hobby, which is why many of us find "more economical" sources to buy from. Likewise, since I buy 90% used records, I DO buy the occasional "special reissues" or find a 1st pressing of a Neil Young or a Mono Box set of Beatles(awesome BTW) to blow my mind.

I buy and find (even on the street!!) dirty records.
But as long as there are no scratches or "white lines" in the grooves (this means it has either been played to death or the stylus/cartridge was not aligned properly) they can be played.

(my segue back to your ??): ) I use a vinyl cleaner b/c of the fact that 90% of my LPs are dirty. Dirty record = dirty stylus = distortion from the souce. This distortion multiplies exponentially from stylus to cartridge to coil to cartridge to tonearm and on and on and on ....

So I decided to invest in a very good LP cleaner, the Okki Nokki 2. Yes, it was $500, but a wise choice b/c it cleans all the old LPs.
And unfortunately, that was the cheapest model for a good cleaner. The next lowest cost in the US is the Spin Clean, for under $100: all manual. It is a great tool
to get somebody into the hobby.

But the Beauty of the Okki Nokki, is that the machine spins bidirectionally, not just one direction. Forward and reverse allows the scrubber to scrub both directions.
if you are just scrubbing one direction, there is likely debris left behind in the groove IMO. Most of the more expensive cleaners mostly only do one direction.
One direction for a $1000: gimme an elfin break.

So do you think 7$ was too much? I think it is very cheap considering I used to buy single on iTunes for 3.50 a few years ago!
I was also looking at the Okki Nokki 2, as it was made in Germany unlike the newest model of them.
But first I have to move, then I can really start to go into depth with Vinyls.

 

[tomb]

Interesting. you say you disagree, but actually you mostly DO agree- read your post again.

1. We were using stylus vs cartridge above in general terms, not breakdown of cantilever, coil/spring, etc.
2. the mass, density, size of the actual cartridge (not cantilever, etc) DOES matter, and this is not only common sense, and manufacturers and professionals will tell you the same.
If the mass, density, size of the cartridge does not matter, then why don't they use the same cartridge mass, density, and size ALL the time? Aluminum is diff than wood, wood is diff than resin/plastic, etc
3. Even if you say that stylus is %75 of sound from the WHOLE cartridge, you are still agreeing that the cartridge-including cantilever, coil/spring, etc- has a 25% influence- in which you are agreeing with me.
4. Of course there is going to be some same parts used in a manufacturers cartridge line up, that is just general manufacturing, almost all manufacturers do it. But if they do, they will tweak another aspect of the cartridge. eg. keep the coil, change the cantilever, or .... change the stylus, keep, the cantilever but reduce the weight of the cartridge body by 10%, and on and on.
5. Have you ever changed a stylus before? thought so. Its not like making a PB and J sandwich. Its just "a little bit" harder . in fact, you have to have a skilled technician do this.
I love DIY, and DIY myself, but this is not something you whip out in 10 minutes
6. Well, while we're at it, why don't we add the sonic influence from matching the cartridge gain to the actual phono stage a person is using? This is a widely researched and accepted principle. IOWs, the Cartridge DOES have a large influence. And it is exactly the people that don't know this that suffer- b/c the quality of the music is largely influenced by matching gain b/w the two.
6. Dude, You don't even listen to vinyl according to your signature equipment !!! What? Maybe stick to what you know rather than speculate, bc it just misleads and misinforms others on the thread. I mean, whenever I see someone with over a couple thousand posts, more times that not, IME they spew opinions (that "I read somewhere on some forum"), NOT facts.

You need to study the parts on a cartridge and stylus. It sounds like you are the one that's never replaced a stylus on a cartridge in your life. It does not take a skilled technician to do it.

More importantly, since when is the cantilever part of the cartridge? You can't change the cantilever. The entire assembly, diamond point and cantilever is only available as a single part and it's all part of the stylus, not the cartridge. It is not user-severable, nor would anyone ever contemplate replacing a cantilever without replacing the diamond.

The rest of the stylus is the plastic body made to hold the cantilever and diamond, and sometimes a gold tube to mount into the cartridge. The cantilever is attached to the tube. The entire assembly is shaped and long enough to insert into the cartridge, where the end of the tube plugs into the magnet suspension system. The stylus is all one piece and is not user-serviceable. For some NOS cartridge/stylus designs not made anymore, there are some phono cartridge experts (often jewelers desiring a side-business) who will replace the diamond on the existing cantilever - but it's never done the other way around. They typically grind the diamond off of an existing cantilever, then add a brand new diamond and make the cuts for elliptical, Shibata, or whatever.

Take a look at these pics -

Those are Shure replacement styli made by LP Gear. The cantilever is that silver tube with the pointy-thing on the end (the diamond needle). The gray and red portions in each are the plastic housings, meant to attach to the cartridge and properly align the cantilever housing into the cartridge, depending on the particular manufacturer's design. Audio-Technica styli look a lot different, for instance. The gold/brass square tube is what actually inserts into the cartridge. The cartridge is not anywhere to be found in these pics. You also cannot purchase any of the separate parts that make up the stylus - except, as noted above, if you find a jeweler willing to grind off the existing diamond from an existing cantilever and replace it. That's usually only because the cantilever was something special such as boron, sapphire, etc.

Just so you know, I bought my first high-end turntable in 1972. Yeah, I've been messing with phono cartridges and turntables for a little while. You should try not to judge someone's equipment from their signature. I started around here long enough ago that phono was out of the question. Now that it's back, maybe I should change that. However, you are welcome to look at the giant phono thread here on Head-Fi. A pic of one of my turntables is in the middle of that thread somewhere, if you insist on some documentation.

 

[SoundDouble]

As for a cleaner I use the vinyl styl, got it off Amazon about $70.

It has worked very good for me. Not as good as a vacuum cleaner, but it does the job if you change the fluid before it gets too dirty. I have done over 150 records and some were filthy. They're all pretty good to great now.

You can spin a couple times in one direction, then flip the record and spin a couple more times. This way it cleans in both directions.

Edit: also get a good stylus cleaner.