Black Stuart
MOT: Deep Sound Cables
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2006
- Posts
- 379
- Likes
- 13
Here we go,
on another forum there is a whole crowd of lemmings who have bought into the Idler thing (Garrard, Lenco).
The performance this lot have gone through to get these agricultural looking dated decks to work is hilarious.
Some are spending £2000 - yes that's right, $4000 for two layer slate plinths, which they rave about - well you would have to after spending that kind of money.
The bearings on the Garrards are crap and on some Lencos they cut the corner off the plinth so that they can use a decent arm!
I almost bought into this BS but hung back and instead listened to an industry professional, James Doddington who supplied a list of Japanese DD superdecks to think about. I bought into the Kenwood KD series, which come with a gimbal arm which James said 'was he best of all the gimbal arms' - having used this deck/arm combo for over 18 months now I agree entirely, having used crappy Rega arms for far too long.
Memepool put me right about modern belt drive decks and for what those idiots paid for two pieces of slate will buy you a belt drive deck and arm that are far better than the antique variety in every way - VPI Scout $3000.
Interestingly I don't think any of the new generation of belt drives uses a suspended platter, if they do, don't buy. Why - time smearing is why.
Direct drive TTs - there was so much hostility when the retail versions came along, totally unfounded and the basis of which was xenophobia. Don't forget that most radio stations dumped their Garrards when the Technics SP10s came along.
There simply is no comparison between the engineering of the Japanese DDs' and Brit/Swiss Idlers.
The Idler crowd kept talking about problems with DDs and used the fear thing about unavailable components. When challenged to say exactly how many DDs packed up - they shut up! There are DDs to avoid, mostly Denons. Technics SP10s and the fabulous Trio LO-7 both have components that can be sourced today.
I know there are many who love their Garrards and Lencos but be aware they are far from neutral and without using a CLP or stone plinth, the bass is lousy and the treble without definition.
I have challenged the Idler crowd to a straight shootout between a Kenwood KD series/Technics SP10 v any Idler, even one equipped with a $4000 plinth. Same cartridge, same phonostage, same power amp -THE SILENCE IS DEAFENING.
Had I known what I know now and made an offer to Kenwood/Trio for all the tooling which was undoubtedy scrapped for recycling, what a good income I would now have. It is the cost of tooling up that will stop the re-introduction of top quality DDs, though I hear that maybe the Chinese are contemplating getting into them.
My Kenwood was badly packed for shipping from Germany to Spain. There was damage to a corner of the plinth and both the cover hinges were smashed to pieces. No transport screws were used either for the motor or the arm - it plays superbly even though I can see it has not been treated well in it's long life. In operation it is silent, quite shocking really after the other decks I have used - it cost me £120($240) and that includes an arm that is so simple to set-up, it's a dream. This arm also debunks the myth about one piece arms.
A good condition Japanese DD should cost around E350-450. Some are fully automatic and some semi. Don't under-rate what an absolute boon it is to have a TT that lifts the arm and switches itself off at end-of-side.
So, if you know what to look for and what to avoid, an 80s' Japanese DD will shock you. Some come with arms that do them no favours but that applies to the Lenco idlers as well and most Garrards are sold without an arm.
As others have said - go down the Idler road and be prepared to spend a lot of time and money, dumping the original plinth is mandatory.
The old belt drives with their suspended chassis should be avoided. Lin Sondeks and the Ittok arm are a perfect example of the power of good advertising and the lemming factor - avoid.
The best of the new belt drives are very good and totally outclass the old ones.
Let's be clear about the function of a TT - it has only one function - to rotate LPs at a very precise speed (some DDs let you adjust the speed). It should not introduce motor noise or any other artifacts into the playback. It should not colour either the bass or treble - in short, it should not be heard in any way at all.
Having used old style suspended belt drives, Rega 2&3s, a DD Technics SL120 (1200 comes with an arm) and the DD Kenwood KD990, I would never contemplate using other than a DD deck. I should be buying another KD series deck, then I will go skeletal with one of them, done properly, visually they blow everything else away.
Arm and cartridge are another matter entirely and this is where personal sonic taste should come into play.
on another forum there is a whole crowd of lemmings who have bought into the Idler thing (Garrard, Lenco).
The performance this lot have gone through to get these agricultural looking dated decks to work is hilarious.
Some are spending £2000 - yes that's right, $4000 for two layer slate plinths, which they rave about - well you would have to after spending that kind of money.
The bearings on the Garrards are crap and on some Lencos they cut the corner off the plinth so that they can use a decent arm!
I almost bought into this BS but hung back and instead listened to an industry professional, James Doddington who supplied a list of Japanese DD superdecks to think about. I bought into the Kenwood KD series, which come with a gimbal arm which James said 'was he best of all the gimbal arms' - having used this deck/arm combo for over 18 months now I agree entirely, having used crappy Rega arms for far too long.
Memepool put me right about modern belt drive decks and for what those idiots paid for two pieces of slate will buy you a belt drive deck and arm that are far better than the antique variety in every way - VPI Scout $3000.
Interestingly I don't think any of the new generation of belt drives uses a suspended platter, if they do, don't buy. Why - time smearing is why.
Direct drive TTs - there was so much hostility when the retail versions came along, totally unfounded and the basis of which was xenophobia. Don't forget that most radio stations dumped their Garrards when the Technics SP10s came along.
There simply is no comparison between the engineering of the Japanese DDs' and Brit/Swiss Idlers.
The Idler crowd kept talking about problems with DDs and used the fear thing about unavailable components. When challenged to say exactly how many DDs packed up - they shut up! There are DDs to avoid, mostly Denons. Technics SP10s and the fabulous Trio LO-7 both have components that can be sourced today.
I know there are many who love their Garrards and Lencos but be aware they are far from neutral and without using a CLP or stone plinth, the bass is lousy and the treble without definition.
I have challenged the Idler crowd to a straight shootout between a Kenwood KD series/Technics SP10 v any Idler, even one equipped with a $4000 plinth. Same cartridge, same phonostage, same power amp -THE SILENCE IS DEAFENING.
Had I known what I know now and made an offer to Kenwood/Trio for all the tooling which was undoubtedy scrapped for recycling, what a good income I would now have. It is the cost of tooling up that will stop the re-introduction of top quality DDs, though I hear that maybe the Chinese are contemplating getting into them.
My Kenwood was badly packed for shipping from Germany to Spain. There was damage to a corner of the plinth and both the cover hinges were smashed to pieces. No transport screws were used either for the motor or the arm - it plays superbly even though I can see it has not been treated well in it's long life. In operation it is silent, quite shocking really after the other decks I have used - it cost me £120($240) and that includes an arm that is so simple to set-up, it's a dream. This arm also debunks the myth about one piece arms.
A good condition Japanese DD should cost around E350-450. Some are fully automatic and some semi. Don't under-rate what an absolute boon it is to have a TT that lifts the arm and switches itself off at end-of-side.
So, if you know what to look for and what to avoid, an 80s' Japanese DD will shock you. Some come with arms that do them no favours but that applies to the Lenco idlers as well and most Garrards are sold without an arm.
As others have said - go down the Idler road and be prepared to spend a lot of time and money, dumping the original plinth is mandatory.
The old belt drives with their suspended chassis should be avoided. Lin Sondeks and the Ittok arm are a perfect example of the power of good advertising and the lemming factor - avoid.
The best of the new belt drives are very good and totally outclass the old ones.
Let's be clear about the function of a TT - it has only one function - to rotate LPs at a very precise speed (some DDs let you adjust the speed). It should not introduce motor noise or any other artifacts into the playback. It should not colour either the bass or treble - in short, it should not be heard in any way at all.
Having used old style suspended belt drives, Rega 2&3s, a DD Technics SL120 (1200 comes with an arm) and the DD Kenwood KD990, I would never contemplate using other than a DD deck. I should be buying another KD series deck, then I will go skeletal with one of them, done properly, visually they blow everything else away.
Arm and cartridge are another matter entirely and this is where personal sonic taste should come into play.