Vintage/Current R2R DAC Owners Discussion, Insight, and Review Thread
Jan 20, 2016 at 1:26 AM Post #751 of 1,111
I should stay out of any thread of products I don't own. I can tell you that the monarchy is an amazing piece. I have upgraded caps and put in some 75 reflektors and I couldn't be happier. So if you see a used one.... Just kidding. You're gonna be stoked with your new gear. Probably better synergy with the HEK anyway. Rationalization is our friend sometimes. I am interested in an interface for the nm24. Looking at the gustard u12 because of the usb and good reviews


I have an EAD CD1000 which uses two pieces of PCM63P-k and I combine that with my Bottlehead Crack and HD600 and it is magic. I know a tubed DAC must be different than R2R DAC -> tube amp but you get my point. We both got something blissful happening when you combine R2R + tubes + dynamic headphone
 
Jan 20, 2016 at 2:52 AM Post #752 of 1,111
Yeah, caught me off guard a bit. Q701 should not sound that good. Don't get me wrong, still can't touch the zmf omni through the same dac and the H10 in the mix but damn. Lovely. The gmp 240 were quite good too. A little warmer. The h10 puts more meat on the bones of both the dynamics but I am preferring the the sound from the dac outs just for its clarity and soundstage. The Qs ice heard on a dozen amps easily. I've never heard them sound as nice as from the nm24. The highs are still very present but no harshness. Just clean upper range musicality. glad I checked it out.
 
Jan 20, 2016 at 6:33 AM Post #753 of 1,111
Yeah, I'm sure it'll sound fine...not one to get under the hood, leaving that to Larry, went for the one he hand tweaks and sprinkles hilly water on. Hopefully, don't need any further upgrades after that (but, who knows...)
 
Jan 26, 2016 at 6:45 PM Post #754 of 1,111
  First review of the EC Designs Mosaic T DAC, from the emerging class of what I'm referring to as New Multibit - boutique, discrete designs of multibit DACs, in the mould of the best performing chipsets of old. This is a NOS design, from what I understand, available in 16 bit and 24 bit versions.
 
Apparently beats the reviewers 12k Euro Rowland Aeris, in a system that has had an Accuphase DC-37, Mark Levinson 360S, Audio Synthesis DAX Decade and a PS Audio PWD ii:
 
http://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/ec-designs-mosaic-t-dac/
 


The nice thing is that we are not alone, as R-2R multibit lovers. And there are significant investments being made in new multibit designs that continue the evolution of Ultra Analog and others. This means we can enjoy the likes of AN DACs, such as astrostar59's, vintage DACs featuring chips like the 1541, 1704, 1865 and 63 - and new look forward to new players in this field. Happy days!

yeah, it seems that its the equal or even better then the 12k Jeff rowland DAC.
 
 
 
 
''
Sound

Nuanced, fluid, airy, relaxed yet nimble, fast and articulate, with a deep and full bass and full dynamic range but entirely without edge, the Mosaic T is decidedly un-digital and free-flowing. This is not to say that it sounds boring, far from it.

Above I briefly mentioned my current reference DAC, the Aeris, but I shouldn’t make judgements based on direct comparisons for two reasons. Firstly because of the major difference in price: the Mosaic is yours for 1500 euro but the Aeris costs a cool 12.500 euro. Second these DACs are voiced quite differently, and have different stronger and weaker areas. Both are interesting for different sonic attributes. What’s flabbergasting however is that the Mosaic manages to surpass the Aeris in several areas, including some where I thought this would not happen easily. In order to fully convey the quality of the Mosaic, I’ll briefly describe each DAC’s strong areas with all things being equal: same sources, cables and setup.

550x413xEC-Designs-Mosaic-T-550pix-IMG_7611.jpg.pagespeed.ic.TF-iIKkXsq.webp


The Mosaic sounds freer and more akin to analog record replay, than the Aeris. It is also airier in the treble, with better low level resolution across the frequency band, and it has more 3D soundstaging with better depth layering and better focus. The Aeris on the other hand is still master of bass-slam and drive. It has that Wadia/Cardas/PS-Audio-like physical solidity that matches well in my already smooth and relaxed sounding main setup. The Aeris still gives me a kick by souding highly convincing in an amplified live music kind of way, but the Mosaic sounds much more convincing with vocals and acoustic instruments in a “real flesh and blood humans in your room” kind of way.

If you switch between the DACs momentarily, either DAC can be perceived as being the better choice for different reasons, but after having listened to the Mosaic a whole evening, then switching back to the Aeris, it’s difficult to come to terms with its sound again. It’s akin to having played LPs all night and then switching back to CD… there’s a kind of hardening and flattening to the sound that prevents me to get connected emotionally again.

''

http://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/ec-designs-mosaic-t-dac/
 

 

Sounds impressive. Ive ordered one!
 
Jan 26, 2016 at 9:47 PM Post #755 of 1,111
That was a very good writeup. The USD is close now to the Euro with a 1:1.09 ratio so if this DAC really performs it wouldn't be so bad on our wallets anymore. I'd love to hear about a comparison between this and the Schitt Yggdrasil.
 
Jan 27, 2016 at 12:06 PM Post #756 of 1,111
  That was a very good writeup. The USD is close now to the Euro with a 1:1.09 ratio so if this DAC really performs it wouldn't be so bad on our wallets anymore. I'd love to hear about a comparison between this and the Schitt Yggdrasil.

You can find other DAC being reviewed by the reviewer on his site.
cd players:
http://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/category/review/digital/
 
USB DAC and SPDIF
http://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/category/review/digital/spdif-dac/
http://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/category/review/next-gen-audio/usb-dac/
 
He prefered the Rowland to the ps audio. He also owned a  dCS Delius and Purcell and the Mosaic T is better overall.
http://hifi-advice.com/Jeff-Rowland-Aeris-review.html
I dont know if anyone compared the rowland or the ps audio to the Yggdrasil. I have a feeling the mosaic T would be at least its equal but probably (much) better. 
 
Feb 1, 2016 at 8:01 AM Post #757 of 1,111

Not sure I should post this here, but having posted here before about my own Audio Note DAC 4.1 experiences, I will put it here anyway. Basically I have been amazed all over again how far I got my R-2R DAC on the ever improving path (in real world budget).
 
I posted before about various power supply upgrades and Audio Note Caps and Duelunds. This time I have attacked the source, my Mac Mini. I had got it above my previous CEC CDP source which cost £3K, and the Mac Mini was £550 with an additional £800 on USB convertors.
 
Next up was get the Mac Mini on a pure 12V DC supply, and ditch the evil Switch Mode Power Supply inside it.
 

 

 

 
I got my HDPlex power supply delivered this last week. The Uptone Audio MMK board that fits inside the Mac Mini came a few weeks before so I started installing thaw MMK board yesterday.
 
There is a strip down guide on the web which I followed. The entire insides of the Mac Mini needs to be disconnected and slid out the back of the aluminium case to then fit the MMK board. TGe old SMTPS power supply in the Mac Mini is removed and replaced by the MMK board. The mains input is gone, and replaced with a push fit 12V DV connector.
 
I must say the strip down and fitting of the board is a bit of a nightmare. Some of the plugs and connectors are really tiny, it is incredible how Apple make the thing in the first place, with robots I guess and computer guided soldering machines. 
 
Anyway, I managed it ok. I got 2 x pairs of connection leads with the HDPlex in the price, so I joined the matching pairs to double the length so I can place the HDPlex near the floor on top of my PS Audio P10.
 
Only 4 hours in but the sound has cleaned up nicely, there is NO digital clues my source is coming from a Mac now, in fact it sounds as good as I remember my turntable system sounding. 

The upgrade / changes to the sound after the MMK and HDPlex were added is quite simple to explain:
I has less crud, is cleaner and smoother, it is more layered and has a wider soundstage, everything is more obvious and less confused when the music gets busy. It has better separation and layering. The bass also has more power and definition and seems to be going lower but without muddying the upper detail that is going on at the same time. You can listen at incredibly loud levels without diving for the volume when the cymbals or lead guitar start up. Everything is better in equal degrees. I would sum it up as being a more sophisticated sound signature, which no doubt underlines the importance of decent power supplies in every device in the chain.

I would put this down to less mains noise from the SMTPS unit in my Mac Mini, and possibly more juice. The 12V DC supply is rated up to 6 amps. I am also feeding the M2Tech EVO external clock with one of the 9V DC outputs from the HDPlex as well. The M2Tech EVO unit itself has a smaller linear power supply I fitted about 3 years back.

I think this proves in my opinion that a well set up computer source can beat a CDP by some margin. The latest version of Audirvana+ direct mode (async) and avoiding iTunes also helps.

So, very happy with this upgrade. I have some tweaks I can do to my Audio Note DAC digital board yet, but I am pretty much maxed out now on the Mac Mini front. I would recommend others to try this upgrade. I got my HDPlex 100 Watt supply on a black friday deal at 295 USD, and the unit is heavy and well built with a large R-Core transformer and Elna Capacitors. 

The HDPlex 100 Watt Linear Power Supply is sat on top of the P10. The HDPlex has 7.5V DC - 13.5V DC (adjustable), 12V DC, 5V DC and 19V DC output jacks. The Mac Mini needs 12V DC. I believe the 19V DC is compatible with many DAC power inputs such as the Chord Hugo.
 
I think this has now maxed out my Mac Mini. I reckon it is as good as any PC based server solution probably costing more money. I prefer the Mac anyway and Audirvana+ software. I think the Aurender server and the TotalDAC Server are supposed to be very good, but they are 5K and Linux based not Mac.
 
Here lis the Mac Mini teardown to get to the stage to fit the MMK board.
 
https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Mac+Mini+Late+2012+Power+Supply+Replacement/11722
 
Here is the finished Mac with it installed.
 


See the MMK (blue) board on the right side and the new fan controller (small blue board) top centre. The installation was very fiddly and you need a lot of patience so as not to break any connections are are really tiny.
 
So very happy with this upgrade. It has been a definite jump. In fact I can't quantify the jump as the same exact volume on certain tracks now vibrates my venetian blinds and it do not do that before the upgrade, so this proves more dynamics / bass energy for example.
 
Hope this helps someone.
 
Feb 4, 2016 at 8:11 PM Post #758 of 1,111
Hey guys, thought I'd share the link as I'm touring one of my MHDT Dacs. Sign-up of the tour ends on Feb 14th, eligibility and details on the page below. Would love for some of you R2R DAC owners to get in on the tour. http://www.head-fi.org/t/797275/tour-mhdt-labs-stockholm-v2-nos-dac-tour-pcm56p-j-r2r-d-a-chips-bendix-2c51-tube-24-192-input
 
 
Feb 11, 2016 at 2:15 PM Post #759 of 1,111
  Hey guys, thought I'd share the link as I'm touring one of my MHDT Dacs. Sign-up of the tour ends on Feb 14th, eligibility and details on the page below. Would love for some of you R2R DAC owners to get in on the tour. http://www.head-fi.org/t/797275/tour-mhdt-labs-stockholm-v2-nos-dac-tour-pcm56p-j-r2r-d-a-chips-bendix-2c51-tube-24-192-input
 


Wow I just checked this thread. Good timing, the sign up ends in a few days.
 
 
Also, I just responded to another Head-fi users inquiry on DACs I use. I felt I collected my thoughts well over the past 6 months and feelings about some of the DACs I own and have compared. I will post this below. Hope it helps anyone who is considering a vintage DAC. Remember, the chipsets are only a piece of the pie to the sound. The filter and power supply are equally important to the sum of all parts.

 
The DAC I use that has two PCM63P-ks is an EAD CD-1000 Series III. It doubles as a CD/HDCD transport and DAC.
 
The PCM63P-k are 20-bit R-2R ladder DACs, the predecessor to the PCM1704-UK that is used in Audio-GD's flagship DACs.
 
The Theta DAC I also own is a Theta DS Pro Progeny version A. This is a PCM67P-k which uses an 18-bit/1-bit hybrid R-2R/bitstream DAC. It combines the topology of bitstream with a stereo 18-bit R-2R DAC. However, it uses a MotorolaDSP56001 to implement a custom filter algorithm (the same Mike Moffatt filter that was updated and handed down to the Schiit line of multi-bit DACs)
 
I haven't done an in-depth comparison of the two DACs using the same headphones and same amplifier. But based on over 6 months of owning both Theta and EAD, I would say they are remarkably similar in sound quality with the EAD getting a slight advantage in it's lack of sibilance or edge. The Theta, being a hybrid R-2R has a very extended top end, and is slightly more bright than the EAD. These are very subtle tonal differences. They can only be told apart when sitting side-by-side these two DACs.
 
Another difference between these two DACs is the implementation of a digital filter. The EAD CD-1000 series III uses a PMD100 HDCD decoder/filter chip to implement the filter algorithm. This filter algorithm is not custom, but was regarded well as being decent and used in many high end DACs from the 90s. With HDCDs, the EAD CD-1000 really really shines. I think it sounds slightly more spacious than when playing stock CDs and gains some of the spatial cues and ambience that is found in the Theta DAC with the DSP56001 w/ its time-domain optimized filter.
 
With standard redbook CDs, the EAD CD-1000 doesn't have quite the same spatial presentation as the Theta DAC. Definitely not a squashed soundstage, but slightly more forward.
 
Best way to sum it all up, EAD CD-1000 sounds tonally very neutral, without the overemphasis on detail like many sigma-delta DACs. Another piece of information, the CD-1000 was compared to the Lynx Hilo DAC which is a $2800 sigma-delta DAC that uses a Sharc DSP for digital filter settings. What we found as a group, was that the EAD CD-1000 has more lush midrange, less emphasis on the highs. It sounded slightly less detailed than the Lynx Hilo, but we found it more enjoyable and natural sounding in presentation. The Lynx Hilo had slightly better spacial cues and comparable bass, but not quite as good of a soundstage.(as the Theta, not EAD)
 
 
The Theta overall, was slightly more detailed with emphasis on the highs that was bordering the edge of a typical sigma-delta design but without sacrificing the drive and oomph in the midrange or bass. This DAC is like drinking a cup of coffee, it will wake you up and hold your attention tight. The soundstage is on-par with the Theta Gen V-A (Theta's TOTL DAC) but the difference is that its top end has a very slight amount of grain to it. Compared to the Bifrost multi-bit this grain can be slightly noticeable. However, nothing about the highs ever gives me the impression that it lacks detail or the difference in decay speed is that much different than the MB. The reason why I find it to be a better and more enjoyable DAC than the Bifrost MB is because of it's incredible dynamics and visceral bass and midrange. This DAC also has a 4V output, which can affect the synergy between DAC and amp... even when volume matched though, this type of sound has been compared to the Yggdrasil in a more recent Headfmania blog.
 
Link to DS Pro Basic review : http://headmania.org/2015/06/28/theta-dspro-basic-oldie-but-goldie-dac/
Link to comparison of Yggy and DS Pro Basic: http://headmania.org/2015/08/18/schiit-yggdrasil-dac-review/
 
Last thing to note. The DS Pro Basic uses 2x AD1865 converters I believe which are 18-bit versus the Progeny's 1-bit/18-bit hybrid DAC. The filter implementation is nearly the same, except the "version A" denotes that the Progeny was upgraded around circa 2000/2001 to use dither in the DSP and added 52 matched transistors to the silicon board.

 
Apr 16, 2016 at 1:54 AM Post #761 of 1,111
First impressions are surprisingly good. At such a good price for a USA made, huge, volume-controlled DAC, I didn't expect as much out of it as I'm getting.
 
I'm not sure if I'll direct A/B the Monarchy 18B and the Atlantis this weekend or not. I had him install a super nice 24 step volume in it which necessitated a machined steel knob... and of course after the extra expense I'm using the fixed output. :p
 
I'm using the Mutec MC-3+USB into the Monarchy 18B via AES.
 
It's limited to 44.1 and 48kHz, so I'm downsampling the few files of higher sample rate that I usually listen to in JRiver.
 
I wasn't confident that I'd enjoy a non-NOS again, but this baby really is musical. It uses AD1860 chips as opposed to the AD1862 I have in the Atlantis (which are basically two AD1860 in one chip). I talked to Mr. Poon about piggybacking the AD1860s for me, but he said he tried it and was able to get better sound out of a single chip (he was one of the original piggybackers for the PCM63 back in the day).
 
No tubes and it has 8x oversampling baked in, but it has a wonderful organic and musical sound to it anyway.
 
As you can see below the ampsandsound Mogwai (those are KT88 tubes for reference), it's a 14 lb monster.
 
And you can get it for $490 + shipping! I added a $100 volume control upgrade and had to pay sales tax because we're both in California, but still...
 
Best R-2R DAC to get started with? Maybe. With no USB input (did I mention that?), you need a USB -> S/P-DIF converter (unless you can output in TOSLINK, Coax, or AES). 
 
It's miles more enjoyable to me than the Schiit Bifrost Multibit, and can already tell you that its more organic and slightly thicker presentation is more to my taste than the Soekris dac1101.
 
That said, you can get yourself into an MHDT Labs Atlantis for a similar price and it has USB and 192kHz capability, but that is a NOS tube dac and won't be for everyone.
 
Really surprisingly great so far. The ultimate test will be directly comparing it to the Atlantis, perhaps after work tomorrow.
 

 

 
Apr 16, 2016 at 1:00 PM Post #762 of 1,111
It's not as cumbersome as the nm24. But that uses 6922 tubes of which I have plenty from my lyr. Musicality of it is amazing. Glad to hear you prefer it over the bifrost mb.
 
Apr 16, 2016 at 2:16 PM Post #764 of 1,111
It's not as cumbersome as the nm24. But that uses 6922 tubes of which I have plenty from my lyr. Musicality of it is amazing. Glad to hear you prefer it over the bifrost mb.

 
Wish I could find a used M24 since it has PCM63 chips in it. I have had my share of PCM1704 DACs (I really like them a lot) but want to hear a good PCM63 implementation.
 
Apr 16, 2016 at 3:28 PM Post #765 of 1,111
A rare find. I think the liteDac shows up more often
 

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