[mikeaj]

Quote:

I personally doubt swapping the USB cable would have made a significant difference. If that was the case, I bet Cambridge Audio would ship usbmagic cable along with it's Dacmagic as well, as part of their jitter reduction scheme...

 
Nah, the cable companies all have secret tech that none of the other audio component manufacturers can understand or replicate, and they're all too cheap to bundle the goods with the secret-sauce cables, so they send us cheap stock cables that are in desperate need of replacement!  I'd DIY the cables myself, but I don't have any pixie dust handy...

 

[drez]

being smug is so cool...

 

[Lorspeaker]

Quote:

 
Was that what it was!!!? WOW. That cable is an exception to the rule! With that USB cable the sound stage spread-eagled. Otherwise piercing highs were dominatrixly tamed. Muddy lows were nun tighten. Sucked mids were ... brought forth. Was it the super conductive phoenix feather metal alloy core that did the trick?

 
its the whisky.....

 

[LFF]

Quote:

 
its the whisky.....

LOL!

 

[AKG240mkII]

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hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe...i had a few whisky..pardon me. 
back to my frolicking in the waters. 

http://www.hear-it.org/Alcohol-can-cause-hearing-loss
 
( No, it's not a joke ! )

 

[Typhoon859]

USB cables do not generate power, they merely "transport" it.

A stock and cheap USB cable I have is able to supply 1 amp to my 500G hard drive from my laptop so that it can spin. If the source is my NAS, the 500G will not spin, but that's because my NAS can only supply 500mA to the hard drive. In other words, the power supplied to your DAC/AMP combo is probably more dependent on your power source than your USB cable.

I understand the cable itself doesn't generate the power. What I am saying though is that certain cables transfer less than what they should. If all USB cables transmitted power equally, then it wouldn't matter what cable was used for any device. But, depending on the device, certain cables provide enough to charge/power it while some don't. That's the whole basis for my question. To be honest, my question is also directly in relation to the FiiO E17 DAC/Amp and how it functions so if I can rephrase the question more specifically... For the E17, would a cable that transmits more power from the source effectively drive the sound better? Would a higher output even from the source make a difference? I always thought the E17 was driven by its battery the same from any source and that the power transmitted through the USB just charged it (the only factor being whether more or less efficiently). Can anyone sort this out for me? I really don't have the knowledge to do so on my own. If the question can be answered for something like the E10 which is 100% driven by the USB supply, that would be great too.

PS- When I say fuller sound, I mean the effect that a good amp has on the signal at equal loudness relative to another. An amp I've found has a significant effect on neutral cans with a large soundstage, not necessarily at all hard to drive. E.g., an iPad has significant amping to drive my Brainwavz HM5's as loud as I could possibly want but through line out and a FiiO E11 amp, it sounds SIGNIFICANTLY better (fuller - more alive, or in stricter terms, more presence and dynamics in the mids and bass).

 

[TickleMeElmo]

Quote:

t a good amp has on the signal at equal loudness relative to another. An amp I've found has a significant effect on neutral cans with a large soundstage, not necessarily at all hard to drive. E.g., an iPad has significant amping to drive my Brainwavz HM5's as loud as I could possibly want but through line out and a FiiO E11 amp, it sounds SIGNIFICANTLY better (fuller - more alive, or in stricter terms, more presence and dynamics in the mids and bass).

 
That's somewhat different in two key ways:
 
A. You cannot say that it sounds better out of the E11 unless you double blind test it with a reasonable confidence interval (i.e. not try it 4 times and if you guessed right 3 times call it a day).
 
B. The circuitry in the iPad is limited and it may not provide the same wattage at different frequencies and other factors. This is less about the iPad not having enough power to drive it, it's more about the iPad not being designed for completely faithful reproduction throughout the entire frequency spectrum.

 

[astroid]

Isnt it the ports that supply the power and the ports that have differences in the voltage they supply, the cables will transfer what they are fed?  

I understand the cable itself doesn't generate the power. What I am saying though is that certain cables transfer less than what they should. If all USB cables transmitted power equally, then it wouldn't matter what cable was used for any device. But, depending on the device, certain cables provide enough to charge/power it while some don't. That's the whole basis for my question. To be honest, my question is also directly in relation to the FiiO E17 DAC/Amp and how it functions so if I can rephrase the question more specifically... For the E17, would a cable that transmits more power from the source effectively drive the sound better? Would a higher output even from the source make a difference? I always thought the E17 was driven by its battery the same from any source and that the power transmitted through the USB just charged it (the only factor being whether more or less efficiently). Can anyone sort this out for me? I really don't have the knowledge to do so on my own. If the question can be answered for something like the E10 which is 100% driven by the USB supply, that would be great too.
PS- When I say fuller sound, I mean the effect that a good amp has on the signal at equal loudness relative to another. An amp I've found has a significant effect on neutral cans with a large soundstage, not necessarily at all hard to drive. E.g., an iPad has significant amping to drive my Brainwavz HM5's as loud as I could possibly want but through line out and a FiiO E11 amp, it sounds SIGNIFICANTLY better (fuller - more alive, or in stricter terms, more presence and dynamics in the mids and bass).

 

[liamstrain]

I understand the cable itself doesn't generate the power. What I am saying though is that certain cables transfer less than what they should. If all USB cables transmitted power equally, then it wouldn't matter what cable was used for any device. 

 
Within the "normal" USB 2 standard specs, the length of the USB cable should never be so long as to have this be an issue. And to date, I've not seen any USB 2 rated cable (as even the cheapest monoprice cables are) that had power issues. Do you have data or specific examples of this being the case?
 
I HAVE seen non-standard USB ports, which did not provide enough power. But this is unrelated to the cable's ability to transport it. 

 

[OJNeg]

Remember folks, wire is wire. As long as the cable itself is to spec, there will be no difference in how the receivers interface or how much power it will transfer. Look at the pin-out for a standard USB cable.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB
 
For USB 2.0, there are 4 pins as you can see. V+, D-, D+, and GND. You wouldn't even need the two data pins if only powering a device through USB. I could jerry-rig two wires to the V+ and GND pins and I would still be able to get power.
 
 
Quote:

Isnt it the ports that supply the power and the ports that have differences in the voltage they supply, the cables will transfer what they are fed?
 

 
There shouldn't be any differences in voltage. USB is 5V standard. Even a low-powered USB port shouldn't deviate (too much) from this, or else the device might not even turn on. The difference lies in the current available. And since P = VI, more current gives you more power.

 

[Typhoon859]

I can't believe all the responses are questioning the little that I mentioned.  I DON'T KNOW, that's why I'm asking you guys.  To be honest I can't feel but a bit insulted but then again, I'm just some random guy and nobody could really know to the extent to which I tested any of this.  I won't repeat any of what I said.  I will only say that I am certain of it all; I am aware of all the phenomenon that could've compromised my judgment.  At the very least for now, for the purposes of figuring out the rooted factor in all of this, try to answer the questions under the assumption that what I mentioned is inherently true.  Like...
 
In terms of the sound from the FiiO E11 amp vs. the iPad's, it is 100% not placebo - there is a very significant difference.  There are cases where I'd need to make sure, trying to blindly see if there are any subtle differences; this isn't one of them.  It's simply a better designed amp and a more powerful one, driving the mids and lows more evenly relative to anything going higher in frequency.  I can't tell you what those differences could be in design and why/in what way the iPad's e.g. is flawed, but the iPad's volume is limited to loudness in Treble while through the amp the harder to drive frequencies relative to the higher ones are done so evenly and the volume isn't limited in that way.  Consider that my technical explanation, lol. 
 
In terms of the cables, like I said, unless I have many many MANY cables that randomly don't meet the standard (I have many cables XD), then clearly there's something more involved than poor design being the reason that the power isn't being fully transmitted.  This is randomly true in combination with different sources, different devices, and different cables, as in, with some sources certain cables work for a device while others don't.  In another source, some of those same cables may work for the device but some may not and others do.  I always thought it just had something to do with resistance.  And I mean, everyone I know has run into this problem at least once, not even trying to test anything.  They just didn't think much of it/didn't care, used a different cable, and that was that.  I wouldn't care enough to delve into all the complexities myself if it were just a matter of a device charging or not; I'd also just switch to a cable that works and move on.  In this case though, there's the potential that it affects quality and considering probable differences in it, I need to know. 
 
 
I'm trying to find out if for prior mentioned devices, if difference in power transmitted could lead to better "quality" (as has been defined), so, let's make this EVEN simpler, sigh..
 
(>Power --> amp = >Quality)?
(More efficient cable --> amp = >Quality)?  <-----This could obviously still be debated but I've told my experience and I thought it was a common
                                                                    one. There's no other explanation and it's not like I've acquired all the "weird cables" of the world.
                                                                    Maybe there's a way to test the power transmitted through the cables; maybe some sort of device?
 
People here are doubting if a better amp could even lead to an improvement in quality (at the same levels) which clearly it can since one can be designed in a great number of ways, especially with compromises like for ones which are integrated into portable multi-functioning devices such as an iPad.  So, I have a feeling like with anything else audio related, I won't ever get an answer - certainly not a straight one.  This is like the least freakin' scientifically treated field I've ever seen.  Nobody knows crap about anything and just applies their personal assumptions based on random observation/theory they've learned that they think may apply.  We'll never be able to move on to the next problem and the next if nothing before is established.  Every time I ask something that's dependent on a factor prior, the factor prior is contested because everyone still disagrees on the elementary.  You can't do the root of something if you can't agree on how to multiply...
 
Look at Psychology.  They've been able to establish grounds for a large assortment of problems based on similar testing.  Why can't we?  Psychology has even less information to go on.  We have the entire field of Electrical Engineering.  I understand that couldn't have happened in the field through forums and talks like this but the information I look for doesn't seem to be remotely universal even in the professional world.  So frustrating...  I already isolate myself by nature and this only adds to this problem which provokes the idea of reinventing the wheel about every little thing I wish to figure out, isolating you into individualized testing for every minor thing.  This is in fact a scientific field and yet nobody gets together to do thorough, long, really involved research that leads to conclusive results that people can learn from.  Nowhere else do students EVEN THINK to argue something like a pretty cable in fact making a difference over an ugly one which really works just as well because it's understood as being founded knowledge being taught.  Of course that's exaggerated but it's only in dreams where it isn't like this to any extent of a degree.  Then again, not many people even dream about it unless they're intent on learning this BS like many of us are through our interest.  At best, people conform to all the wrong unfounded ideas and I'm starting to not see a difference between them and us so-called "audiophiles".  I'm not speaking for myself btw..
 
Sorry about the rant.  It's just so exhausting already...
 
 
Quote:

 
That's somewhat different in two key ways:
 
A. You cannot say that it sounds better out of the E11 unless you double blind test it with a reasonable confidence interval (i.e. not try it 4 times and if you guessed right 3 times call it a day).
 
B. The circuitry in the iPad is limited and it may not provide the same wattage at different frequencies and other factors. This is less about the iPad not having enough power to drive it, it's more about the iPad not being designed for completely faithful reproduction throughout the entire frequency spectrum.

 
Quote:

Isnt it the ports that supply the power and the ports that have differences in the voltage they supply, the cables will transfer what they are fed?
 

 
Quote:

 
Within the "normal" USB 2 standard specs, the length of the USB cable should never be so long as to have this be an issue. And to date, I've not seen any USB 2 rated cable (as even the cheapest monoprice cables are) that had power issues. Do you have data or specific examples of this being the case?
 
I HAVE seen non-standard USB ports, which did not provide enough power. But this is unrelated to the cable's ability to transport it. 

 

[liamstrain]

Quote:

At the very least, try to answer the questions under the assumption that what I mentioned is inherently true. 

 
 
 
 
No - that's not the way science works. Especially when the concept in question is not at all likely to be true. I have never run into this problem, with the exception of one broken cable. But let's say what you are experiencing is inherently true - we still have not determined it is the cables that are at issue - they may only be a trigger for an equipment fault, or it could be entirely coincidence. Without objective testing, we cannot know. 
 
 
 

This is like the least freakin' scientific field I've ever seen. 

 
 
No - you are expecting science to say things it cannot with the evidence so far provided. And the people in the best position to do the research (the product manufacturers themselves), have no vested interest in doing so, since most of it will put them out of business. 
 
 

Maybe there's a way to test the power transmitted through the cables; maybe some sort of device?

 
 
Any reasonably sensitive multimeter with an appropriate adapter plug, will give you readings from the USB port, and then from the cable, to compare. I have not done such a test, but there is little reason to suspect that a short length of cable like this will show any appreciable power loss. 
 
 
 

In terms of the sound from the FiiO E11 amp vs. the iPad's, it is 100% not placebo - there is a very significant difference. 
 

 
 
It is especially in the "obvious" differences that we need to double check ourselves using objective methods. Blind testing is not just for subtlety. I actually don't doubt you on this call, but I do doubt the reasons for the difference - I suspect that FiiO uses some internal eq to generate an artificially fuller sound, and actually does modify the signal, rather than just amplify. 

 

[bigshot]

At the very least, try to answer the questions under the assumption that what I mentioned is inherently true.

If you wanted us to humor you, you should have said that at the beginning, and I could have just said I'm sure your unusual USB cable is very nice.

 

[Typhoon859]

Quote:

 
 
 
No - that's not the way science works. Especially when the concept in question is not at all likely to be true. I have never run into this problem, with the exception of one broken cable. 
 
 
 
 
No - you are expecting science to say things it cannot with the evidence so far provided. And the people in the best position to do the research, have no vested interest in doing so, since most of it will put them out of business. 
 
 
 
 
Any reasonably sensitive multimeter with an appropriate adapter plug, will give you readings from the USB port, and then from the cable, to compare. I have not done such a test, but there is little reason to suspect that a short length of cable like this will show any appreciable power loss. 
 
 
 
 
 
It is especially in the "obvious" differences that we need to double check ourselves using objective methods. Blind testing is not just for subtlety. I actually don't doubt you on this call, but I do doubt the reasons for the difference - I suspect that FiiO uses some internal eq to generate an artificially fuller sound, and actually does modify the signal, rather than just amplify. 

I understand that.  There was a specific bit of scientific data that I was looking for and that's what I wanted to know.  I mentioned what that is.  All that was involved was getting in the way so the point of what I was saying was for the idea to be isolated in context.  I further said that about the cables, it's still debatable; I said that!..  I haven't evaluated the problem using actual data, just careful observation based on the results.  It's why I'm asking.  It's not like I've been given a likely reason as to why this might be.  Do I go against the possibility of there being some other issue I'm overlooking?  All I said was that based on the extensive results, I can't think of and no other factors were brought up that could be affecting what I've experienced.
 
Wow, you guys really make it difficult don't you?  Can we talk on level with each other please?  What kind of BS is you telling me what I'm expecting from science.  I can't even comment on that.  If there's something you'd like to mention, mention it, but do so without spontaneous aggression; doesn't matter what nonsense gets stirred in your head.  Try to be objective.  Please don't push past my breaking point - or anyone's really.  A month ago with me, we would've already been there.  How do you expect me to respectfully phrase things especially after you just took everything I said, put it in a bag of s***, and through it at my face, and then proceeded to make a comment.
 
Justification behind why many things in the field are uncertain is ironic at best.  The point is that it is and it's an issue, as would be for any scientific practice.  To be honest, I thought I'd actually get some sympathy in this regard because all of you seem to be squirming with this as well.  Nobody here has a sense of unified understanding behind one concept or another.  Maybe I'm overlooking the fact that everyone thinks they know best and don't think of the possibility that they could actually learn so it's like trying to say to sheep that they're all alike and them trying to individualize themselves with defensiveness even though the issue is larger than that which even has to do with them.  I wasn't isolating any of you guys about the overarching issue.  I don't know why it's like this but the point is that it is.  Any other profession, there are much fewer things, especially to this basic a nature, that are so difficult to get to the bottom of and move on, while here, never ending controversy.  How many decades has it been?
 
 
Quote:

If you wanted us to humor you, you should have said that at the beginning, and I could have just said I'm sure your unusual USB cable is very nice.

Did you read anything else from what I've said?  Big shot, was it necessary to take this path?  What I was trying to say with that is if it's a problem otherwise to try and answer assuming there were differences in the power transmitted through cables, then take that factor out of the equation for now, point being to establish whether it even matters in the end regarding this.  Is it necessary to be anal about everything?  Do you not have the capability to expand on a thought?
 
What does that even mean?  What USB cable of mine is even nice?  When did I ever even?...  Right, ok..  It matters not what I say, people like you will still come around.  I won't get any more specific than that   If you have nothing to say, then ignore this and engage where you do.  I'm sorry, were you insulted?  Really?..  Or did you just feel like being an ass?

 

[liamstrain]

What kind of BS is you telling me what I'm expecting from science.  I can't even comment on that.  If there's something you'd like to mention, mention it, but do so without spontaneous aggression; doesn't matter what nonsense gets stirred in your head.  Try to be objective.

 
 
 
My apologies if that is how it comes across, that really is not my intent. You were complaining about how unscientific this field is. I am just countering that it is, in fact, quite scientific. Most of the complaints about it seem (from most people, and I'm sorry if I lumped you into them) to come from a misunderstanding of what science does, how, and what if any conclusions can be drawn reliably.