Acix
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So, the D2000 more bassy then the PRO/Proline 750s?
Ultrasone PRO 750 vs. Denon AH D2000
- Thread starter toxic888
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ZephyrSapphire
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Quote:
IIRC they're about the same. Just that the pro750's are tighter and more defined whereas the D2000's are leaner and more laid back.
| Originally Posted by Acix /img/forum/go_quote.gif So, the D2000 more bassy then the PRO/Proline 750s? |
IIRC they're about the same. Just that the pro750's are tighter and more defined whereas the D2000's are leaner and more laid back.
wavoman
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Peter -- thank you for the kind words.
Zephyr -- I think you have nailed it, but I would change one word: "lusher", not "leaner" re the D2000.
When we need closed phones, I choose the Pro 750, my wife the D2000s (we own both). She loves the D2000, and as I said in the post Peter referenced, the D2000's are too mellow for me.
This is exactly what Zephyr meant -- you want to lay back and listen, love the music -- go D2000. You want razor sharp analytics, you want to hear the horn player breath, go Pro 750.
There are open phones that can do both to some degree. The best Stax for sure. And the 600-ohm Beyer 880.
[And if I listened only to rock there are other better choices IMO].
But if you are picking between these closed phones, Zephyr has basically told you everything (and I listen to both a lot, so this is not bs).
Peter and other posters add one thing: soundstage is better with the 750s.
D2000s have a much looser headband and cushion feel than the 750's. Again -- do you want to relax, or be sharp?
And there is that touch of high-end brightness to the 750s ... I have seen head-fi'ers throw 750's off their heads in disgust at a meet on first hearing. The high end is why. So listen to them before you buy!
Both should be amp'd. Well I have never tried them without. The Pro 750s will be more durable than the D2000s IMO.
That covers your matrix. Now consider this:
Headphones. They are all so beautiful, they are all so different, I want to spend a night with each one. Time to choose one and only one when I grow up. (Oh, I already did, but you get the point I hope).
Headphones, women, wine ... there is no concept of "best". I hope you do not draw up a matrix before you decide whom to date!
Fall in love ... this is music!
(And I'm a statistician by training, so don't think I reject quantitative reasoning or anything ... picking headphones is just not the place to try decision analysis. Instead: Listen. Love. Luxuriate).
Zephyr -- I think you have nailed it, but I would change one word: "lusher", not "leaner" re the D2000.
When we need closed phones, I choose the Pro 750, my wife the D2000s (we own both). She loves the D2000, and as I said in the post Peter referenced, the D2000's are too mellow for me.
This is exactly what Zephyr meant -- you want to lay back and listen, love the music -- go D2000. You want razor sharp analytics, you want to hear the horn player breath, go Pro 750.
There are open phones that can do both to some degree. The best Stax for sure. And the 600-ohm Beyer 880.
[And if I listened only to rock there are other better choices IMO].
But if you are picking between these closed phones, Zephyr has basically told you everything (and I listen to both a lot, so this is not bs).
Peter and other posters add one thing: soundstage is better with the 750s.
D2000s have a much looser headband and cushion feel than the 750's. Again -- do you want to relax, or be sharp?
And there is that touch of high-end brightness to the 750s ... I have seen head-fi'ers throw 750's off their heads in disgust at a meet on first hearing. The high end is why. So listen to them before you buy!
Both should be amp'd. Well I have never tried them without. The Pro 750s will be more durable than the D2000s IMO.
That covers your matrix. Now consider this:
Headphones. They are all so beautiful, they are all so different, I want to spend a night with each one. Time to choose one and only one when I grow up. (Oh, I already did, but you get the point I hope).
Headphones, women, wine ... there is no concept of "best". I hope you do not draw up a matrix before you decide whom to date!
Fall in love ... this is music!
(And I'm a statistician by training, so don't think I reject quantitative reasoning or anything ... picking headphones is just not the place to try decision analysis. Instead: Listen. Love. Luxuriate).
pataburd
Headphoneus Supremus
Quote:
The PRO750 were my reference headphones for over a year. Recabled with the RAL Paradise they still rate among the best, closed headphones I've ever heard, with the possible exception of the Denon AH-D2000/5000.
That said, when a/b-ing the PRO750 v. PRO2500 on baritone vocal tracks (e.g. Bryn Terfel's "Vagabond and Other Songs by Vaughn Williams"), I did detect a leanness--a "tenorishness," if you will--in Terfel's voice over the PRO750 which was not evident over the PRO2500.
Mind you, this in itself was not enough to make me prefer the 2500 over the 750 (the 750 remain my very decided favorite of the two), but it certainly made me take notice of something desirable that the PRO750 did not have relative to the PRO2500.
Again, IMHE, the PRO750 were unrivaled in their portrayal of female vocals, while the PRO2500 were unrivaled in their portrayal of pipe organ works.
| Originally Posted by Peter Pinna /img/forum/go_quote.gif IMO, there is no "slight deficit" in the lower/middle midrange of the Pro 750. Across the full frequency spectrum, the Pro 750 is the best sounding headphone I've heard so far. |
The PRO750 were my reference headphones for over a year. Recabled with the RAL Paradise they still rate among the best, closed headphones I've ever heard, with the possible exception of the Denon AH-D2000/5000.
That said, when a/b-ing the PRO750 v. PRO2500 on baritone vocal tracks (e.g. Bryn Terfel's "Vagabond and Other Songs by Vaughn Williams"), I did detect a leanness--a "tenorishness," if you will--in Terfel's voice over the PRO750 which was not evident over the PRO2500.
Mind you, this in itself was not enough to make me prefer the 2500 over the 750 (the 750 remain my very decided favorite of the two), but it certainly made me take notice of something desirable that the PRO750 did not have relative to the PRO2500.
Again, IMHE, the PRO750 were unrivaled in their portrayal of female vocals, while the PRO2500 were unrivaled in their portrayal of pipe organ works.
pataburd
Headphoneus Supremus
Quote:
I think both the PRO750 and the D2000 have an optimal forwardness to their signatures. The D2000 have more smoothness and roundedness in their presentation, but without sacrificing detail, IMHE. The D5000 are more laid back than the D2000, but at the same time more detailed.
Quote:
Yes. I'll concede that, too. The PRO750 had better front-to-back dimensionality and sense of "layering" than the D2000, IMHE.
Quote:
Even with a pure silver (RAL) recable, the PRO750 never struck me as an overly "bright" pair of headphones like, say, the SR-325i or SA5000. When I say say overly "bright" I mean with a decided treble emphasis, not unduly sibilant or harsh over the high frequencies. I would say that the PRO750 had more transient edge/carry than the D2000, though, which I denote as a plus for the Ultrasones.
Quote:
Me, too! : ) Headphones--music--help my mind to stay balanced during the work day. : )
| Originally Posted by wavoman /img/forum/go_quote.gif When we need closed phones, I choose the Pro 750, my wife the D2000s (we own both). She loves the D2000, and as I said in the post Peter referenced, the D2000's are too mellow for me. |
I think both the PRO750 and the D2000 have an optimal forwardness to their signatures. The D2000 have more smoothness and roundedness in their presentation, but without sacrificing detail, IMHE. The D5000 are more laid back than the D2000, but at the same time more detailed.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by wavoman /img/forum/go_quote.gif Peter and other posters add one thing: soundstage is better with the 750s. |
Yes. I'll concede that, too. The PRO750 had better front-to-back dimensionality and sense of "layering" than the D2000, IMHE.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by wavoman /img/forum/go_quote.gif And there is that touch of high-end brightness to the 750s ... I have seen head-fi'ers throw 750's off their heads in disgust at a meet on first hearing. The high end is why. So listen to them before you buy! |
Even with a pure silver (RAL) recable, the PRO750 never struck me as an overly "bright" pair of headphones like, say, the SR-325i or SA5000. When I say say overly "bright" I mean with a decided treble emphasis, not unduly sibilant or harsh over the high frequencies. I would say that the PRO750 had more transient edge/carry than the D2000, though, which I denote as a plus for the Ultrasones.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by wavoman /img/forum/go_quote.gif (And I'm a statistician by training, so don't think I reject quantitative reasoning or anything ... picking headphones is just not the place to try decision analysis. Instead: Listen. Love. Luxuriate). |
Me, too! : ) Headphones--music--help my mind to stay balanced during the work day. : )
toxic888
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Quote:
Some fine words there!
Thanks, I have a better idea of what to do now.
My X10's (IEM's) just arrived, I am so surprised I can not sum everything up into words, it's like music is at a completely different level; scratch that -> dimension.
| Originally Posted by wavoman /img/forum/go_quote.gif ... picking headphones is just not the place to try decision analysis. Instead: Listen. Love. Luxuriate). |
Some fine words there!
Thanks, I have a better idea of what to do now.
My X10's (IEM's) just arrived, I am so surprised I can not sum everything up into words, it's like music is at a completely different level; scratch that -> dimension.
wavoman
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Pat -- yea, I think you are right re superior transient response of 750 v. D2000.
Perhaps I didn't use the right adjective "bright", but these is something different in the hi freqs of the 750's that some (not me) find problematic. I think I can hear the hi freq difference between these two HPs, even though my hi freq hearing is shot.
Can't describe it perfectly, but I know it when I hear it. None of this detracts from my love of the 750's.
PM me if you want to talk stats. Where did you study / what do you do?
Perhaps I didn't use the right adjective "bright", but these is something different in the hi freqs of the 750's that some (not me) find problematic. I think I can hear the hi freq difference between these two HPs, even though my hi freq hearing is shot.
Can't describe it perfectly, but I know it when I hear it. None of this detracts from my love of the 750's.
PM me if you want to talk stats. Where did you study / what do you do?
alexpea
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toxic888: I think you misunderstood my last post. I was referring to a comparising between the 750's and my Audio Technica ATH-AD2000's. AD2000's is one of the best headphones around, especially on high freqs, and when a/b'ing these two phones, the misleading sound of the 750's really shine through. Maybe I didn't give the 750's enough attention due to this parallell ownership of phones, but I did burn them in for over 50 hours with white noise.
You received the Klipsch X10's? Wohoo, those are great! I own those as well
Beautiful detail and soundstage with brilliant comfort. Only thing is, after I began studying music technology, I've come to realize the importance of healthy ears. IEM's are no good for your ears as they display the sound at much higher levels, reducing the stapedius-reflex of your ossicles. It also generates heat, which will make bacteria florate.
So my advice is, turn down the volume and take breaks now and then to normalize your hair-cells in the cochlea. If not, they will tend to get used to the volume-level, making you want to turn up the volume even more. Hearing-damage is the least thing a headfier wants. But hey, congratz on your purchase, and enjoy them to the fullest - just like I do !! It's not always easy to take precautions when the music is portrayed in such a fine way
You received the Klipsch X10's? Wohoo, those are great! I own those as well
So my advice is, turn down the volume and take breaks now and then to normalize your hair-cells in the cochlea. If not, they will tend to get used to the volume-level, making you want to turn up the volume even more. Hearing-damage is the least thing a headfier wants. But hey, congratz on your purchase, and enjoy them to the fullest - just like I do !! It's not always easy to take precautions when the music is portrayed in such a fine way
pataburd
Headphoneus Supremus
Quote:
wavoman,
The PRO750 have a raw, visceral directness to them, a quality I notice most in their upper mids--and appreciate most in their rendering of the female voice; however, this trait also translates to their higher frequencies, too, I think.
It's their "unapologetic honesty" and welcome forwardness that I appreciated most when I owned the PRO750 (Proline 750, actually). But then, I've a predelection for forward, honest, "neutral" and what some would characterize as "bright" in my listening tastes.
BEGINNING OF BIOGRAPHICAL NOTES:
After working years as a manual laborer, my "professional" life actually began as an engineer (after Clarkson University). Later on, after my wife and I found ourselves in the sunny Southwest, I returned to school (UNM) and emerged--surprisedly!--with a degree in Math, with a concentration in Statistics. Most of all, I liked the interdisciplinary nature of Statistics.
My second career has seen me in the food industry (lots of multi-factor experimental design, mixture models, etc.), in the junior college classroom (teaching math and introductory statistics) and most recently in the healthcare industry (lots of contingency tables, logistic regression and mixed model ANOVA/ANCOVA). With the exception of the teaching experience, I've found myself (preferrentially) in an R&D environment.
As of today, I find myself poised on a third career, and am currently applying for a program in Theological Studies with the Augustine Institute, which I hope to complete, God willing, in two years (on a part time basis). Ideally, I would like to finish this earthly life writing, doing decidedly Catholic research and possibly teaching.
END OF BIOGRAPHICAL NOTES.
It may be of interest--for what it's worth--to observe that I did not come to full flower as a Head-Fier until I began studying/working as a statistician. : )
PAB
| Originally Posted by wavoman /img/forum/go_quote.gif Pat -- yea, I think you are right re superior transient response of 750 v. D2000. Perhaps I didn't use the right adjective "bright", but these is something different in the hi freqs of the 750's that some (not me) find problematic. I think I can hear the hi freq difference between these two HPs, even though my hi freq hearing is shot. Can't describe it perfectly, but I know it when I hear it. None of this detracts from my love of the 750's. PM me if you want to talk stats. Where did you study / what do you do? |
wavoman,
The PRO750 have a raw, visceral directness to them, a quality I notice most in their upper mids--and appreciate most in their rendering of the female voice; however, this trait also translates to their higher frequencies, too, I think.
It's their "unapologetic honesty" and welcome forwardness that I appreciated most when I owned the PRO750 (Proline 750, actually). But then, I've a predelection for forward, honest, "neutral" and what some would characterize as "bright" in my listening tastes.
BEGINNING OF BIOGRAPHICAL NOTES:
After working years as a manual laborer, my "professional" life actually began as an engineer (after Clarkson University). Later on, after my wife and I found ourselves in the sunny Southwest, I returned to school (UNM) and emerged--surprisedly!--with a degree in Math, with a concentration in Statistics. Most of all, I liked the interdisciplinary nature of Statistics.
My second career has seen me in the food industry (lots of multi-factor experimental design, mixture models, etc.), in the junior college classroom (teaching math and introductory statistics) and most recently in the healthcare industry (lots of contingency tables, logistic regression and mixed model ANOVA/ANCOVA). With the exception of the teaching experience, I've found myself (preferrentially) in an R&D environment.
As of today, I find myself poised on a third career, and am currently applying for a program in Theological Studies with the Augustine Institute, which I hope to complete, God willing, in two years (on a part time basis). Ideally, I would like to finish this earthly life writing, doing decidedly Catholic research and possibly teaching.
END OF BIOGRAPHICAL NOTES.
It may be of interest--for what it's worth--to observe that I did not come to full flower as a Head-Fier until I began studying/working as a statistician. : )
PAB
Peter Pinna
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Wavoman: Absolutely excellent post, as is usual for you. I could not have possibly described the Pro 750 sound any better. There is one minor mistake in your post, where I am concerned. I have never actually made a comparison between the sound stage of the D2000 and the 750. As I wrote in a previous post, responding to a request from toxic888, I do not, IMO, have enough experience with the D2000 to make what I would consider to be a fair comparison between these two headphones. Any time I make a comparison of this nature, I spend a lot of analytical time with both headphones, "A/Bing" almost to the point of obsessiveness making as absolutely sure as I possibly am able that what I think I hear, I actually do hear.
alexpea: In your post your advice regarding the protection of one's hearing is superb. I do not like IEM's for the reasons you've indicated and also the idea of putting something into your ear so deep is one that holds no appeal to me, whatsoever.
pataburd: I really like, in your post, your description of the sound of the Pro 750 where you wrote that their sound has an "unapologetic honesty and welcome forwardness". I think that also is a very apt and simultaneously imaginative description of the qualities of the Pro 750 sound.
| Originally Posted by wavoman /img/forum/go_quote.gif Peter -- thank you for the kind words. Zephyr -- I think you have nailed it, but I would change one word: "lusher", not "leaner" re the D2000. When we need closed phones, I choose the Pro 750, my wife the D2000s (we own both). She loves the D2000, and as I said in the post Peter referenced, the D2000's are too mellow for me. This is exactly what Zephyr meant -- you want to lay back and listen, love the music -- go D2000. You want razor sharp analytics, you want to hear the horn player breath, go Pro 750. There are open phones that can do both to some degree. The best Stax for sure. And the 600-ohm Beyer 880. [And if I listened only to rock there are other better choices IMO]. But if you are picking between these closed phones, Zephyr has basically told you everything (and I listen to both a lot, so this is not bs). Peter and other posters add one thing: soundstage is better with the 750s. D2000s have a much looser headband and cushion feel than the 750's. Again -- do you want to relax, or be sharp? And there is that touch of high-end brightness to the 750s ... I have seen head-fi'ers throw 750's off their heads in disgust at a meet on first hearing. The high end is why. So listen to them before you buy! Both should be amp'd. Well I have never tried them without. The Pro 750s will be more durable than the D2000s IMO. That covers your matrix. Now consider this: Headphones. They are all so beautiful, they are all so different, I want to spend a night with each one. Time to choose one and only one when I grow up. (Oh, I already did, but you get the point I hope). Headphones, women, wine ... there is no concept of "best". I hope you do not draw up a matrix before you decide whom to date! Fall in love ... this is music! (And I'm a statistician by training, so don't think I reject quantitative reasoning or anything ... picking headphones is just not the place to try decision analysis. Instead: Listen. Love. Luxuriate). |
Quote:
| Originally Posted by wavoman /img/forum/go_quote.gif Pat -- yea, I think you are right re superior transient response of 750 v. D2000. Perhaps I didn't use the right adjective "bright", but these is something different in the hi freqs of the 750's that some (not me) find problematic. I think I can hear the hi freq difference between these two HPs, even though my hi freq hearing is shot. Can't describe it perfectly, but I know it when I hear it. None of this detracts from my love of the 750's. PM me if you want to talk stats. Where did you study / what do you do? |
Quote:
| Originally Posted by alexpea /img/forum/go_quote.gif toxic888: I think you misunderstood my last post. I was referring to a comparising between the 750's and my Audio Technica ATH-AD2000's. AD2000's is one of the best headphones around, especially on high freqs, and when a/b'ing these two phones, the misleading sound of the 750's really shine through. Maybe I didn't give the 750's enough attention due to this parallell ownership of phones, but I did burn them in for over 50 hours with white noise. You received the Klipsch X10's? Wohoo, those are great! I own those as well
So my advice is, turn down the volume and take breaks now and then to normalize your hair-cells in the cochlea. If not, they will tend to get used to the volume-level, making you want to turn up the volume even more. Hearing-damage is the least thing a headfier wants. But hey, congratz on your purchase, and enjoy them to the fullest - just like I do !! It's not always easy to take precautions when the music is portrayed in such a fine way
|
Quote:
| Originally Posted by pataburd /img/forum/go_quote.gif wavoman, The PRO750 have a raw, visceral directness to them, a quality I notice most in their upper mids--and appreciate most in their rendering of the female voice; however, this trait also translates to their higher frequencies, too, I think. It's their "unapologetic honesty" and welcome forwardness that I appreciated most when I owned the PRO750 (Proline 750, actually). But then, I've a predelection for forward, honest, "neutral" and what some would characterize as "bright" in my listening tastes. BEGINNING OF BIOGRAPHICAL NOTES: After working years as a manual laborer, my "professional" life actually began as an engineer (after Clarkson University). Later on, after my wife and I found ourselves in the sunny Southwest, I returned to school (UNM) and emerged--surprisedly!--with a degree in Math, with a concentration in Statistics. Most of all, I liked the interdisciplinary nature of Statistics. My second career has seen me in the food industry (lots of multi-factor experimental design, mixture models, etc.), in the junior college classroom (teaching math and introductory statistics) and most recently in the healthcare industry (lots of contingency tables, logistic regression and mixed model ANOVA/ANCOVA). With the exception of the teaching experience, I've found myself (preferrentially) in an R&D environment. As of today, I find myself poised on a third career, and am currently applying for a program in Theological Studies with the Augustine Institute, which I hope to complete, God willing, in two years (on a part time basis). Ideally, I would like to finish this earthly life writing, doing decidedly Catholic research and possibly teaching. END OF BIOGRAPHICAL NOTES. It may be of interest--for what it's worth--to observe that I did not come to full flower as a Head-Fier until I began studying/working as a statistician. : ) PAB |
Wavoman: Absolutely excellent post, as is usual for you. I could not have possibly described the Pro 750 sound any better. There is one minor mistake in your post, where I am concerned. I have never actually made a comparison between the sound stage of the D2000 and the 750. As I wrote in a previous post, responding to a request from toxic888, I do not, IMO, have enough experience with the D2000 to make what I would consider to be a fair comparison between these two headphones. Any time I make a comparison of this nature, I spend a lot of analytical time with both headphones, "A/Bing" almost to the point of obsessiveness making as absolutely sure as I possibly am able that what I think I hear, I actually do hear.
alexpea: In your post your advice regarding the protection of one's hearing is superb. I do not like IEM's for the reasons you've indicated and also the idea of putting something into your ear so deep is one that holds no appeal to me, whatsoever.
pataburd: I really like, in your post, your description of the sound of the Pro 750 where you wrote that their sound has an "unapologetic honesty and welcome forwardness". I think that also is a very apt and simultaneously imaginative description of the qualities of the Pro 750 sound.
Peter Pinna
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Quote:
Just out of curiosity, which headphone are you "leaning toward"?
| Originally Posted by toxic888 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Some fine words there! Thanks, I have a better idea of what to do now. My X10's (IEM's) just arrived, I am so surprised I can not sum everything up into words, it's like music is at a completely different level; scratch that -> dimension. |
Just out of curiosity, which headphone are you "leaning toward"?
toxic888
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That's very true, I can't help but turn the volume up... I do it without thinking now. I will consider your description of IEM contact within the ear canal, I have skimmed a few articles here and there but never payed too much attention... this is an issue that concerns me because hearing is extremely important in my life, as is in all head-fi'ers live's I would believe...
| Originally Posted by alexpea /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's not always easy to take precautions when the music is portrayed in such a fine way
|
That's very true, I can't help but turn the volume up... I do it without thinking now. I will consider your description of IEM contact within the ear canal, I have skimmed a few articles here and there but never payed too much attention... this is an issue that concerns me because hearing is extremely important in my life, as is in all head-fi'ers live's I would believe...
toxic888
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Peter:
The descriptions of the PL750's in this thread appeal more to me than those of the D2000's. I wll definitely attempt to try and go to an audio store where I will be able to listen to both, un-amped, then amped if possible.
Also -> I can request a lower price for the PL750 from an audio store because Northern Sound and Light is an authorized dealer
The descriptions of the PL750's in this thread appeal more to me than those of the D2000's. I wll definitely attempt to try and go to an audio store where I will be able to listen to both, un-amped, then amped if possible.
Also -> I can request a lower price for the PL750 from an audio store because Northern Sound and Light is an authorized dealer
alexpea
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I think the Audio-Technica ATH-A900 also could be a choice for you. As far as I remember, it has many of the same qualities as these two phones, and it's nicer to your wallet.
Order all three, and hold on to the one you like the most
Order all three, and hold on to the one you like the most
pataburd
Headphoneus Supremus
Quote:
My subjective experience with the ATH-A900LTD was a sound that was a bit "heaped up" around the midrange, without the treble extension--and certainly without the bass extension/prominence--of either the PL750 or D2000. I would also characterize the A900LTD as less forward than either the PL750 or D2000. Immediately after owning the A900LTD for a month or two, I bought the Proline 750, a/b-ed them with the ATH, and never looked back [i.e. on the Audio Technica].
| Originally Posted by alexpea /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think the Audio-Technica ATH-A900 also could be a choice for you. As far as I remember, it has many of the same qualities as these two phones, and it's nicer to your wallet. Order all three, and hold on to the one you like the most
|
My subjective experience with the ATH-A900LTD was a sound that was a bit "heaped up" around the midrange, without the treble extension--and certainly without the bass extension/prominence--of either the PL750 or D2000. I would also characterize the A900LTD as less forward than either the PL750 or D2000. Immediately after owning the A900LTD for a month or two, I bought the Proline 750, a/b-ed them with the ATH, and never looked back [i.e. on the Audio Technica].
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