[steven-026]

I think the Behringer or something like it may be more in my radar, because I already have a receiver.  It's a Pioneer SX-315 and I have surround sound speakers with it.

 

[analogsurviver]

Quote:

Oh, OH, wait wait wait I'm very sorry. the Pioneer is PL-200, not PL-21.
 
Wow analogsurviver, you're very well informed about this turntable stuff. Sorry I misspelled your name before, surviver with an "E". 

 You got some really golden advice there.
 
I won't be listening to them through speakers, but headphones instead because now is not the time yet for that. I'll be moving into a house with some friends from my university so it will be quite not so enjoyable if I turn up my speakers.
 
Clean and well preserved records are most definitely important, that I must agree. One of my first purchases after the turntable would be cleaning tools like the brush or liquid or whatever I need. A test record could fetch somewhere around $30 plus (RM100) here in a flea market, there is one here and they sell used and vintage goods. I saw some pictures online of that place, apparently one record seller has a whole stack of records labeled 'Audiophile'. New ones would cost some more in music stores. Quite weird as we have music stores that carry vinyl, but not much turntable sellers. 
 
What I see in this turntable is experience. It might not be the best turntable I can get for this price, but it's a start. From here on I can start to learn about it slowly and build my experience thereon. I'll have to start scavenge for parts or records or other things, spend money on them, etc etc. It seems like something I am looking forward to.
 
No I don't think I will get to the level of those Greek audiophiles. I don't have a critical ear for little changes in audio quality. Most of the time I can't even differentiate between 320kbps MP3 and Flac files. Currently my setup is an Aune T1 tube amp + DAC and a Goldring DR150 headphone. Not really drooling over the HD800 or LCD2, I know they will sound better, but some part inside of me is telling me it's not worth the money and time to chase it. Yet here I am asking opinions about a turntable, which will consume my time and money. Why is that? Maybe I'm just looking for a change of experience instead of an improvement of experience.
 
**edit: I will go to the flea market this Saturday to look for records and probably a better deal for turntables. I would greatly appreciate it if you can throw your opinions should I provide their models for your assessment. Will include pictures of them, no worries.

I can not stress one point enough : IF YOU WILL NOT BE GETTING ANY NEW SEALED MINT UNPLAYED GUARANTEED TO BE GOOD RECORDS DUE TO COST ISSUE, GET TEST RECORD IN SUCH A CONDITION.
 
Because a record can be ruined in a single play. Worn/chipped stylus, poor bearings in tonearm, poor adjustment to arm/cartridge geometry , poor adjustment to vertical tracking force and antiskating are all, individually or in concert, capable of such an "achievement ". And bear in mind, a properly adjusted moderate player will ALWAYS smoke poory adjusted TOTL deck - and preserve your records for the future, should some fairy tale make possible for you to become "a Greek audiophille in Malaysia". Test records tend to be quite costly - at least twice the price for a regular record in case of "consumer test records" - and yet a hell of a lot more for professional test records meant for measurements. An anecdote regarding this : in late 70s/early 80s, the fame of good sound of Grado FTE+1 cartridge reached even our "shores" - it was the cheapest Grado with an elliptical stylus that cost then $ 13.something, with the price printed on the famous Grado paper roll box. Sure enough, I bought one for myself and a few more for friends in order to get the best price for shipping from the USA. It was the same time I was collecting orders to get some test LPs, shipping costs etc, from UK this time. When I told the price of the HFS81 test record to one of the friend with the new Grado in hand, he replied almost screaming : You crazeee - no way I am going to pay for a test disc three times the price as for the records I am still meandering whether to buy them or not ?!!! Off he went, with the Grado meant for his new Pioneer table. A day or two later, he was on the phone: That Grado sounds like ****, going into great detail just what is far worse than with Shures and Ortofons he has been using previously. Since I own and use predecessor to the HFS81 test record, the HFS76, I knew just in which bush the rabbit was hiding. Shures and Ortofons my friend had previously were such great trackers that it almost did not matter if you mounted them "almost upside down" - it would still sound "acceptable". Not so with Grado - it has to be aligned and adjusted more correctly in order to start giving all the things reviewers were praising it for. So, we agreed for me to come by to this friend and align the cart right and adjust the table with the HFS76 test record. As I arrived at about 8:00 PM, everything took like close to two hours, and no real listening on speakers was no longer possible because of the neighbours etc. Next day, out of the blue there was this friend of mine at the door, saying absolutely nothing, handing me over the required sum for the HFS81, turned around and - left...
 
The modern day equivalent is http://www.vinylengine.com/hfn-002-test-lp.shtml   It is quite an improvement over first issued version. If you balk at the price - see above again. And remember - the guys who can afford http://www.bornrich.com/entry/top-10-most-expensive-turntables/ ( I am nowhere near this elite group, just for the record ), will need it just as well as you - should they skimp on test LP and you don't, you'll be getting better reproduction off your flea market tt than those guys off theirs - hope that was clear enough.

 

[penmarker]

OK now you've scared me. What if I set up my turntable wrong? I can watch tutorial videos and read how-to guides all day to balance my tonearm, antiskating, cartridge/stylus installation, but without experience I might get it wrong AND damage the test record the first time I play it. What if I get some records and the test record, so that I can set the TT up and then put on some normal records. After I'm satisfied knowing it will not damage my record, then I will start with the test record.
 
You have been clear enough. What I'm worried about now is just my inexperience in setting up the turntable.

 

[analogsurviver]

Quote:

OK now you've scared me. What if I set up my turntable wrong? I can watch tutorial videos and read how-to guides all day to balance my tonearm, antiskating, cartridge/stylus installation, but without experience I might get it wrong AND damage the test record the first time I play it. What if I get some records and the test record, so that I can set the TT up and then put on some normal records. After I'm satisfied knowing it will not damage my record, then I will start with the test record.
 
You have been clear enough. What I'm worried about now is just my inexperience in setting up the turntable.

Scaring you enough to really pay attention was the purpose of the previous post. Of course, normal records should be tried first - if there is really something very wrong, you should hear it instantly. As a fellow JVC HA-S500 (ab)user, I can tell you they are a bitch - they will let you hear it all, be it good or bad. Check the forthcoming posts regarding measurements/graphs in the JVC HA-S500 and JVC HA-S770 threads - 500s are good out to at least 25 kHz ( the limit of the measuring setup, HPs themselves might even be better ... ) - and they are ruthlessly revealing.
 
1.)Turntable setup: lateral geometry ( use protractor of some sort ) > vertical tracking force, minimum from the manufacturer specs  > antiskating ( if applicable ) dialed to coprresponding VTF > some QUIETLY RECORDED NORMAL LP ( listening for obvious defects ) > IF this is OK, proceed to test LP: > channell orientation > phasing > tracking bands recorded at the minimal level > adjust the antiskate/VTF so that it just barely distorts ( onset , not some jarring gross distortion ) on both channels  at the ever higher level on the test LP. Rule of thumb - if only left channel is distorting, the antiskate is set to high relative to the VTF, if right channel only distorts, antiskating is set too low relative to the tracking force. When you reach the symmetrical slight mistracking, increase the VTF by appropriate amount to get clean results -
usually it is 0.1 gram ( 1 mN to be exact ) of VTF that make audible difference, with better/best equipment this can sink to as low as 0.02 g or 0.2 mN. There is a limit to how high to go with VTF - if it starts sounding damped and too lifeless, back off - normal records generally do not require tracking levels beyond 70 micrometers - and although records that are almost but unplayable due to extreme levels do exist , you should not care about them - not on your present budget. If you master your TT to this level, you can rest assured your records will be played OK and be preserved for the future.
 
2.)You will hear that above also depends on something called Vertical Tracking Angle, that has a direct correlation with Stylus Rake Angle. It requires that your arm/turntable offers height adjustment of the tonearm ( uups, slipped out this time, the proper term for the device is pick-up arm, as the pick-up arm should, in theory at least, have no "tone" of its own ) at the bearing/base side - at least with a screwdriver / hexwrench. Better/top offerings have continous adjustment for VTA, some even on the fly while playing a record. The lowest priced generally available unit with this capability is Technics SL 1200/1210 series.
 
Above that - as you have seen - sky is te limit.
 
You should be able to achieve 1.) with your intended purchase + test record. After gaining some experience, you will be able to make qualified judgements what is that you are after - you may stop at this level - or you might end up designing the best table on the planet. Up to you.
 
Coming next : vynil record cleaning. 

 

[penmarker]

Yeah I agree the S500 is unforgiving, but not really 'ruthless' in my book. I can hear artefacts in low bitrate songs pretty clearly. I'll keep that in mind when I am tuning and setting up the turntable.
 
Go on with your vinyl record cleaning, everything else you've posted are just pure gold.

 

[Silent One]

Quote:

Coming next : vinyl record cleaning. 

 
Yeah 

 let's hurry up and get to the dirt! Before I spend unnecessarily. Weighing options tonight; tomorrow, before I spend more money on tubes.

 

[analogsurviver]

Quote:

 
Yeah 

 let's hurry up and get to the dirt! Before I spend unnecessarily. Weighing options tonight; tomorrow, before I spend more money on tubes.

You will need a carbon fibre record brush - no matter what you already have, except for the audio maniacs with the laser turntable - that one requires wet vacuum cleaning prior to playback of each side of the record. It comes under godzillion of names, best introduced by the correct use on YT :
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQO4iPJYLwE
 
There are sexier versions at higher ptice out there, like Hunt EDA http://www.amazon.com/Hunt-Carbon-Fiber-Record-Brush/dp/B001A9ST2G, that does offer some advantages, but bang for the buck ( with correct usage ) goes with the basic one shown in video. In Europe, Conrad carries them at about Eer 6 apiece, but these really pop up under godzillion of names - record stores, electronic service centres, etc, etc - should not be hard to get. If you are on a tight budget, basic one bought and used now is certainly better than Hunt EDA in some planned future. Mine is still "planned".
 
Carbon brushes can only remove dust particles and such - they are incapable of removing any more stubbornly embedded dirt or press release agent on new records. That can only be removed by some wet cleaning method.
 
GOLDEN RULE - YOU SHOULD WET CLEAN ANY FRESH NEW UNPLAYED RECORD PRIOR TO ANY REPRODUCTION
 
Why? Because vynil record is a product from a mould - you would probably never be able to separate it from the mould if there was no releasing agent
( usually some silicone ) between the mould and vynil. Lately, record manufacturers started to employ sometimes quite large amount of this release agent - new  record appears dirty/greasy, sometimes to the point it appears almost "wet". It is, besides mentined press mould release, also proof of the virginity of the new unplayed record. If you play new record with all this release agent on its surface, you will most probably embed it into the grooves for good. Styli might track at what appears to us low force - what is a gram or two ( 10 - 20 mN to be exact ) ? Well, that force is applied on very small contact surface ( in fact two, for each side of the groove one ) - that generate pressure of TONS fer square centimeter ! Actually, vynil almost get liquified by the passing stylus ( just short of it, it definitely has to be allowed to cool down prior to repeated playing - guys with more tonearms on a single turntable, do not A/B your vynil grinders at 2/3/4 at a time if you value your records ). Any stylus should exert not more than pressure that allows for elastic deformation of vynil - that means, vynil will return to its former condition/shape and no permanent change/demage is done to it. You do not want it to reach plastic deformation - if elastic def limit is exceeded, you get plastic one - this one will leave change/permanent demage the vynil groove. How much actual vertical tracking force is needed not to exceed it is dependant on the stylus tip profile - VdH 1 stylus should not be played at more than 1,5 g ( 15 mN ) - in theory. If you have a VdH cart, you should know better - only few VdHs can achieve really good tracking with so low tracking force. Goes for the entire 2 g tracking crowd - which is today about everything available. Direct reccomendation - it is safe
for the vynil to track at 15-16 mN Audio Technica AT440MLa with a Micro Line stylus ( for all practical purposes exerts the same pressure as VdH ) - an Audio Technica AT120e with elliptical stylus that has lower contact surface should not exceed say 13 mN - and " from the plane " these two carts look almost identical save for the colour. The 

 lurks always in details ...
 
There are basically two methods to wet clean the vynil - without ( inexpensive ) and withh vacuum ( can be thousends of $ ). As they say picture is worth thousand words :  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If3PYmuelHA and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II9S2DHN8qg The first is "Words in English" version, the second is pictures proper.  All I can say - get it, or a similar thing sold in the USA - even if you own an expensive vacuum record cleaner. Why? Because sooner or later, a record that is !"#$%&/()=?* ( my way of expressing things that do not look good on paper and would get me banned if posted for real ) will come up for cleaning, and such real dirty and neglected records tend to leave residue on the nozzle of the vaccum record cleaner; on better machines, the nozzle exceeds the whole Knosti Disco Antistat in price and yeah, such records are better pre cleaned with Knosti than going directly to vacuum cleaning. Better both for record and expensive nozzle - you can almost say Knosti is free considering what calamity a single record like described can cause.
 
Next - vacuum cleaning & cleaning solutions

 

[penmarker]

I have to wash them off the releasing agent prior to playing the first time? That brings another problem into the equation. Say I buy a used record, and the previous owner had not washed it before playing once. Will it affect much on the playback? Should I be worried and ask the seller "Hey do you wash it the first time you play it?" because I've actually came across some people discussing about this and one of them said that he was never bothered to wash his records on first playback. 
I've seen a video on the wet vacuum cleaner. It's like a turntable but you wet the record with some solution and the vacuum sucks the liquid off the vinyls like magic. It was so cool tho I gotta admit, but it must cost pretty steep.
 
What if I wash the records under running water without wiping it with any cloth or such and leave it to dry? That however could be dangerous because we sometimes see water marks on things that are air dried. Wiping the record would be dangerous as it will mess with the grooves and might even introduce more dust and fiber from the wiping cloth itself.
What if I cannot get that wet record cleaner, what other options do I have?
 
Also, continue with your vacuum cleaning etc.

 

[Silent One]

Thanks for the Vidz - will watch them with afternoon tea...

 

[analogsurviver]

Quote:

I have to wash them off the releasing agent prior to playing the first time? That brings another problem into the equation. Say I buy a used record, and the previous owner had not washed it before playing once. Will it affect much on the playback? Should I be worried and ask the seller "Hey do you wash it the first time you play it?" because I've actually came across some people discussing about this and one of them said that he was never bothered to wash his records on first playback. 
I've seen a video on the wet vacuum cleaner. It's like a turntable but you wet the record with some solution and the vacuum sucks the liquid off the vinyls like magic. It was so cool tho I gotta admit, but it must cost pretty steep.
 
What if I wash the records under running water without wiping it with any cloth or such and leave it to dry? That however could be dangerous because we sometimes see water marks on things that are air dried. Wiping the record would be dangerous as it will mess with the grooves and might even introduce more dust and fiber from the wiping cloth itself.
What if I cannot get that wet record cleaner, what other options do I have?
 
Also, continue with your vacuum cleaning etc.

What I described is of course ideal scenario - but we live in real world. Let's get this straight - very few are actually using wet cleaning, particularly vacuum one, from the day one LP one of their collection. I will try to explain; I used to work in CD/LP retail about 10 yers ago and on my initiative and insistance got "myself" on the department with classical music a nice Project RPM4 turntable with Project K4 cart (Grado Black rebrand). One thing led to another and soon there was Clear Audio vacuum record cleaning machine standing by the Project. We were cleaning LPs for a reasonable fee.
Word got around and in came a well known Editor-In-Chief for pop/rock music on our national radio. He was quite sceptical about the whole thing, but did bring two records that were dear to him in rather poor condition. About 2 minutes per LP later, he went home - with a promise he will report on the "experiment".
 
That he DID NOT do - ever. Next day, he barely menaged to squeeze through the door - carrying bags with muchos LPs in both of his hands. All better, imported from around the globe rock rarities. He laughed, impishly : Now you will tell me next that this thing can improve the sound of RTB records ! (PGP RTB = Radio Televizija Beograd, ex Yugoslavia, now Serbia; producer of many labels under licence, such as Philips, A & M, Pablo, Enja, an odd ECM, Sonet - in general, quite well selected programme, but rather "thick" and noisy vynil, generally not appreciated for technical excellence of the pressings ). I replied: Wanna bet ? Naturally, he lost, fair and square. RTBs might have had copy effect here and there ( basically, they must have been getting stampers that were thougt past their  prime from their principal, but they WERE original masters - clean the thing and - o la la ! Needless to say, he had TONS of RTBs brought for cleaning.
 
The difference if you wet vaccum clean the Virgo Intacta LP or one that has been repeatedly played will always be noise, ticks and pops - which will be all but gone in Virgo Intactas - but reduction in preplayed ones is of course still worth it. One note - first plays might be a bit more noisy than consequent ones - stylus is diggigng up the dirt that has been all but released by the wet process - and would otherwise stay embeded in vynil, causing, you guessed it, noise and ticks and pops. With some records, it is worthwile to repeat the wet vacuum cleaning after say 5-10 playings - they will get better still. One gets pretty quick an ear for which records may benefit from repeated vacuuming and which not. Trouble with vacuum record cleaning machines - they are bulky, heavy, noisy, require cleaning solution and  are - you guessed it - costly. That Clear Audio was a very good one, with a price of IIRC 1900 EUR. There are cheaper solutions, but I grew quickly fond of dreaming about the idea of getting a Loricraft that does both sides at once, is quieter ...and then, generally, woke up - and went to work ! That Loricraft is about twice the cost of Clear Audio !
 
For home use, say two LPs a day prior to listening, get anything that does inspire a reasonable amount of confidence and does not burn too large a hole in the pocket. In your personal case - vacuum record cleaning machines are generally heavier than turntables, therefore ... That Knosti is smaller/lighter, but postage system being what it is, may be still costly to get to your location.
 
OR not - at all. Postal regulations preclude transportation of various chemicals - and the ones used generally for LP cleaning can be quickly something not permitted to fly. I have to check out how is it with this at the moment. Which will lead us to cleaning solutions - manufacturers would certainly claim that their solution contains a magical X ingredient that is so magical for your LPs that it would be blasphemy to use anything but their solution for their RCM. What if, you somehow got to posess such a RCM - and that X lands on the list of chemicals you can touch only with the click of your mouse and get heavily fined if customs at your side discover what was really flying instead of, say, milk ? Postal regulations regarding chemicals are not there to make you and your RCM life tougher, but to ensure safety during the transport - no kidding with this, please. Do not think you would sleep well at night after hearing some plane carrying x passengers fell out of the sky because of explosion in the baggage trunk of that plane, carrying your cleaning solution. Which will bring us to home brew solutions for vacuum cleaning.
 
P.S: Knosti DOES fly : http://www.ebay.de/itm/Knosti-Disco-Antistat-Record-Cleaning-Kit-Free-Spare-Filters-3-pack-/390511489884?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5aec4c735c#ht_3792wt_932
 
It is usually cheaper from Germany (check ebay.de ), but generally not shipped outside Germany.

 

[Silent One]

I'm just getting started in my return to vinyl and quickly finding maintenance costs adding up. I haven't completely abandoned the digital rig. Each month I try to balance the allocation of a few dollars toward analogue or digital.
 
Currently using the Spin Clean Limited Edition Record Washer.

 
And this weekend, considering the VPI 16.5 RCM, or Pre-Owned TT or some audio tweaks to the system. I thought about complimenting the 'Spin Clean' with a portable steamer. Anyone here use steam?

 

[MorbidToaster]

I'm honestly pretty close to pulling the trigger on a VPI 17 cleaning machine. It'd cost more than my TT did but after seeing one in action and knowing the importance of cleaning (but still not doing it) I really want one. The 16.5 is too much hassle (comparing the 2) and the 27 is unnecessary for me.

It's probably worth about as much as my LP collection but it'd be an investment in the future, too.

I've been playing new vinyl without any sort of cleaning (over half my collection is new). I hate to wait but it might have to come after my speaker rig.

 

[calipilot227]

Although very technical and wordy, analogsurviver had some good advice. I firmly believe that a wet-vacuum cleaner is the most significant upgrade you can make to your vinyl rig.
 
I use this one: http://www.kabusa.com/ev1.htm
 
It's the cheapest of its type, but it works great. Before any record gets played on my turntable, it gets washed in the EV-1. No exceptions. Once you get your records clean, using a carbon fiber brush (like the Audioquest or Hunt EDA, I use the Hunt) is enough to keep them clean for as much as six months if you play them regularly.

 

[penmarker]

Records are essentially plastic, PVC, polyvinyl chloride. What is stopping me from using a cleaning solution like normal soap and water mix? Also how do I wash it with those devices and not damage the label in the middle? Those labels are paper and water/any liquid will make it wet and later when it dry it will usually be crooked, or worse, tear off while it's wet and weak.
 
From my perspective, and the way I see it, cleaning is to wash away any impurities on the vinyl from the grooves that will affect the record and its playback. Silent One, how does steam cleaning benefit the vinyl? Does it remove deposits and dust better than cleaning with previous solutions?
 
What I do know is alcohol cleaning solutions usually results in very very clean and shiny surfaces, while soap usually leave the soapy residue and has to be rinsed really thoroughly to get the same result. Alcohol being alcohol evaporates fairly quickly while leaving little or no trace of its presence. I guess this is why vinyl cleaning solutions are mostly alcohol based? I had some CD cleaners and they were alcohol based.
 
Thanks a lot, everyone, you've been much of a help, again.

 

[Silent One]

From what I've read, steam cleaning methods still need record cleaning solutions that gets brushed onto the records. Steaming is just the vehicle to remove the impurities in the grooves that's lifted; encapsulated, by the cleaning solution.
 
My current thoughts are maybe buying a portable steamer to use after the initial wash with the 'Spin Clean.' Fill the bad boy with Aquafina and steam the records making sure no cleaning solution or any other residue got left behind.