TURNTABLE SETUP Questions thread - don't start a new thread, ASK YOUR QUESTION HERE!

[BLACKENEDPLAGUE]

Man, build yourself an anti-grav base (it isn't infringing a patent if you aren't selling), get the clearaudio spirit gauge and the clearaudio clever clamp, then get a jewelers scale (like $25 on ebay)
 
Hi-Fi does not have to be expensive.

 

[DarthFader]

No, a turntable won't automatically sound better than a CD player. There's enough variance in setup skill, alone, to make it into an absurd notion regardless of direction. Then, when we consider the actual hardware, the better of which is made to tolerances on the nano-level, and folks here are typically dealing with entry-level models saddled with multiple negative constraints, the odds of the LP sounding better decreases exponentially.

Thanks for shedding some light on this.
 
These remarks have me thinking more generally about the lovefest analog gets. It's funny how many engineers in the industry spend so much time playing around with CLASP or Virtual Tape Machine to add that "analog" sound to stuff they tracked and mixed in their DAWs. Everyone is chasing that analog sound. Everyone wants digital to sound analog. But you know, when stuff is recorded right with high quality mics, high quality A/D converters, and played back on capable systems, it's really impressive the performance digital can provide. I've yet to hear an analog system that can match it. And on my budget, I'm thinking I might not for a long time.

 

[BLACKENEDPLAGUE]

You'll find that 90% of records released nowadays are CD or even worse, MP3 sourced. As MF stated in an article, MP3 isn't evil, but you must have control

 

[analogsurviver]

 
I appreciate this honest response. It's refreshing to see someone acknowledging that merely having a turntable won't magically sound better than a high quality digital set-up.
 
I have a related question: setting aside a cleaning device, what's the single most important factor for achieving great sound quality out of a turntable. I'm guessing it's the cartridge but curious to hear if that's true. Does it make any since just to sink all of my money into a major cartridge upgrade of my existing, low-cost turntable?

In a word - no.
 
As Schaffer has pointed out before me, it is the precision of "everything" that holds the said cartridge in place and "drives" it. By fitting a perfect cartridge ( which does not exist ) onto a lower quality table/arm, the imperfections of table/arm will get read - you guessed it - perfectly. And it is anything but pleasurable to hear all that ******* exposed ....
 
When VPI came out with its new DD TT and 3D printede arm , they demonstrated its superiority with a relatively far too inexpensive Grado cartridge. My personal experience is even far more drastic - the most honest performing analog turntable I ever heard was Versa Dynamics ( top model, fitted with "everything" available for it at the time ) - paired with Ortofon OM20 Super cartridge.  At the time, roughly 30 K table with $100 cartridge. There IS a reason behind it - Versa short effective length tangential arm offers the most perfect of tracking the real, ondulated records - but it can achieve the holy grail of analog playback, that is to say the SEESAW frequency (the frequency at which it oscilates in zero VTF condition ) to be higher than the fundamental effective mass/compliance of suspension resonance (usually around 10 Hz or so ) - ONLY WITH A VERY LIGHTWEIGHT CARTRIDGE WITH HIGH ENOUGH COMPLIANCE to allow for this "blessed state". 
 
Ortofon OM20 Super is something usually paired with the likes of Dual 505 - where it can not possibly show its true colours.
 
I fitted OM20 Super to the Versa initially because of very simple resason - the table comes with 2-3 inches thick A4 user manual and it is NOT a breeze to set up - even for me. And for that first step I wanted to have a cart that is  known to be good, has replaceable stylus and is inexpensive enough if it, all care and precautions notwithstanding, trashed during the setup. The owner of the table could not wait to see this "lowly" cart replaced - ASAP - by then TOTL Ortofon MC 7500.
 
It is a high mass low compliance cartridge - which in this combination performed non plus ultra poorly than its FAR less well to do relative. I felt really sorry for the owner - OM20 Super was MINE.... Eventually, he paired MC 7500 with Helius Cyalene tonearm ( a SUPERB arm ) on Voyd Reference TT - and Versa received Benz Ruby Open Air - which, although far better in its own right than the OM 20 Super, does not achieve the same kind of tracking as its low mass "nemesis".
 
Versa/OM 20 Super combo was the ONLY turntable that made me really check whether the signal observed on the oscilloscope is not coming from - an signal generator. Anythin else yet tested produced typical artifacts of analog playback - to a greater or lesser extent.
 
I hope this at least partly explains your question

 

[DarthFader]

  In a word - no.
 
As Schaffer has pointed out before me, it is the precision of "everything" that holds the said cartridge in place and "drives" it. By fitting a perfect cartridge ( which does not exist ) onto a lower quality table/arm, the imperfections of table/arm will get read - you guessed it - perfectly. And it is anything but pleasurable to hear all that ******* exposed ....
 
…  
I hope this at least partly explains your question

It definitely does! I'm learning a lot from the people in this forum. Thanks for taking the time to be patient with a newbie!

 

[analogsurviver]

  It definitely does! I'm learning a lot from the people in this forum. Thanks for taking the time to be patient with a newbie!

I ADORE your definition of Pro Tools - blyak !

 

[DarthFader]

  I ADORE your definition of Pro Tools - blyak !

Haha thanks! It's such a nerdy joke. I'm glad you like it!

 

[analogsurviver]

 
Haha thanks! It's such a nerdy joke. I'm glad you like it!

It hits the nail directly on the head - 

 !

 

[]eep]

Thanks for shedding some light on this.

These remarks have me thinking more generally about the lovefest analog gets. It's funny how many engineers in the industry spend so much time playing around with CLASP or Virtual Tape Machine to add that "analog" sound to stuff they tracked and mixed in their DAWs. Everyone is chasing that analog sound. Everyone wants digital to sound analog. But you know, when stuff is recorded right with high quality mics, high quality A/D converters, and played back on capable systems, it's really impressive the performance digital can provide. I've yet to hear an analog system that can match it. And on my budget, I'm thinking I might not for a long time.

that is like a middle-aged man who traded in his wife for a tight young gorgeous girl. She looks nice, he can show her off to his friends and the sex is great. But she doesn't know how to bake pancakes nor all the other things his wife used to know about him he likes. Never mind the wrinkles and aberrant behaviour. To his new conquest he's just an 'old guy' who buys her stuff. His relationship is now just based on lust and exterior, but the love is gone. And now he's trying everything he can to get the feeling back but he doesn't know how. He tried an older girl with wrinkles, but that wasn't it. Another one with some of the same quirks as his old wife, but that even made him miss her more. It isn't what she did wrong, but what she did right!

About the question

will a turntable automatically sound better than a CD player?

The answer is quite simply no. QED. But so is the reverse;

will a CD-player automatically sound better than a turntable?

No again. QED: generalizations in general do not apply to very complex questions. There is no such thing as 'a CD-player', even less than that there would be 'a turntable'. And then there is the question what do you mean by "sound better"? That is very subjective.

So is analogsurvivers explanation. As much as I appreciate him, here he focuses merely on tracking. Vinyl playback is NOT merely about tracking. It is what you hear when tracking is going as it should. His explanation is building on the 'Ivor Tiefenbrun dogma' (the Linn way of thinking). I used to be a Linn buyer/owner/believer. But the truth is - again - not that simple. The summum of musical reproduction is very elusive, slippery and easy to scare off with a simple mistake. If you just go out and buy 'a cd-player', a decent one or a good one, you will never attain musical nirvana. The same goes for a turntable. But I bet it will get you closer to the heart of the music.

Spreading your budget around the best turntable you can find with the cheapest cartridge might be the smartest plan if you intend to upgrade later, but is is not the best option given a set budget. But isn't that obvious? With analog you need to balance your budget and know your stuff so as to best balance your components. In my opinion and experience (that is about 45 years since I played my first children's record) the cartridge is as important as the rest of the turntable (it has about the same complexity in itself) as the amplification, as the speakers. The cartridge, when operating within optimal perimeters, is more important to sound that the turntable is. A cartridge that tracks well 99% of the time and sounds great will give you much more pleasure than a cartridge that never mistracks but sounds slow and bland (like that OM20). In most cases mistracking is due to bad mastering or a not properly aligned needle (including not enough force on the needle).

My analog setup closely matches my digital setup in sound quality. But the prices are very, very far apart ($400 for PC HD and DAC compared to $10k for cart, TT, tranny, phono). But that says very little about the ability to convey emotion. That is very dependent on source material and state of mind. I know that the feeling of being engulfed in the music happens a lot more often with analog than with digital. That (plus the actual investment in software for both) justifies the price for me. New LP's are expensive, so are CD's, but 2ndH LP's are very cheap and illegal downloads cost nothing. LP's can hardly ever be illegal because of manufacture and copyright issues.

My advice would be that TT and cart+phono should be about equal price.

 

[yeahx]

My advice would be that TT and cart+phono should be about equal price.

Darn because my turntable was free and I really don't think I will get very good sound if I only use free stuff with it. Doesn't help that it is a Japan import that I can't find any info about. But it has started to sound so good to me that I have put off the idea of buying something new so it can't be too horrible. Thought this was the picture thread and almost said something. Coffee is still soaking in.

 

[]eep]

Well, yeah, I don't usually switch threads that easily.

I once got a Kiseki Blue cart for free with my Pro-Ject Perspective... The cantilever suspension rubber is a bit whimpy (it doesn't track that well) but it's still very ok.

I needed to read up on the previous pages, maybe I need some nuancing... I think $1500 can get a long way, but honestly I can't even remember not having a close to perfect MC-tranny which makes my choice in cartridges a lot easier. Still, I could pull it off I think, with a few modifying skills... or is that cheating? I would go for a Rega RP3 ($900), MF 5.1 or Pro-Ject 1 Xpression Carbon ($800) with a Dynavector 10x5 ($550) with a modified Chinese MM-phono (I have modified a Yaqin MS22b which is now very good). It's getting difficult to get a just a bit better than average TT for this price while leaving budget for the Phono preamp.

These puzzles are never easy. But you need luck too. I was looking for a Hanns table (Chinese too, w/o arm) but then I saw an add offering a used Clearaudio Performance for half the price. Leaving budget for the cartridge I wanted for over 20 years since I read the first review in HFN-RR (2ndH still 2x the price of the ClearAudio).

Edit:
Wow! Talk about chills... I am playing an LP I bought this week for €1. Ariel Ramirez - Missa Criolla on Philips 842 763 PY from 1966 sounds so darn good. It is just like you are standing inside a whitewashed Argentinian chapel. Like I am there. It sounds just so natural, spatial and live. One of those special recordings that never made it to the TAS list because of obscurity.

 

[analogsurviver]

Well, yeah, I don't usually switch threads that easily.

I once got a Kiseki Blue cart for free with my Pro-Ject Perspective... The cantilever suspension rubber is a bit whimpy (it doesn't track that well) but it's still very ok.

I needed to read up on the previous pages, maybe I need some nuancing... I think $1500 can get a long way, but honestly I can't even remember not having a close to perfect MC-tranny which makes my choice in cartridges a lot easier. Still, I could pull it off I think, with a few modifying skills... or is that cheating? I would go for a Rega RP3 ($900), MF 5.1 or Pro-Ject 1 Xpression Carbon ($800) with a Dynavector 10x5 ($550) with a modified Chinese MM-phono (I have modified a Yaqin MS22b which is now very good). It's getting difficult to get a just a bit better than average TT for this price while leaving budget for the Phono preamp.

These puzzles are never easy. But you need luck too. I was looking for a Hanns table (Chinese too, w/o arm) but then I saw an add offering a used Clearaudio Performance for half the price. Leaving budget for the cartridge I wanted for over 20 years since I read the first review in HFN-RR (2ndH still 2x the price of the ClearAudio).

Edit:
Wow! Talk about chills...

I am playing an LP I bought this week for €1. Ariel Ramirez - Missa Criolla on Philips 842 763 PY from 1966 sounds so darn good. It is just like you are standing inside a whitewashed Argentinian chapel. Like I am there. It sounds just so natural, spatial and live. One of those special recordings that never made it to the TAS list because of obscurity.

That Missa Criolla recording has been made in - ahem - ANYTHING but a whitewashed Argentinian chapel. It was studio cramped to the max of max of max. As the textbooks are fond of saying, finding the pics of the recording session is left as an exercise to the reader 

.
 
Regardless, the recording is GREAT - and it is a shame it never made it to the TAS list. If it does not give you chills, goosebumps and/or chicken skin - check if you are still alive. Highly recommended record !

 

[]eep]

Damn, must you know everything? Yes, there is a picture of the recording venue in the textsheet. But when you close your eyes you don't see that...

Coming back on the clamp... I realized I didn't have a high point next to the axis so the record is pushed down on the edge. So I made a small ring from one of those yellow earplugs (like memoryfoam that expands slowly). Now the record really makes firm contact on the edge. Ok, it doesn't make a lot of difference, but it works well and it's self-adjusting. I use the Clearaudio Twister Clamp. Basically the same clamp as ^ but more expensive (wasn't around yet at the time I bought it).

 

[penmarker]

Its been probably 2 weeks since I've bought the Rega RP-1 and truth be told I'm starting to like it now. The downside however is the high noise floor which I suspect from the lubrication for the subplatter. The platter won't spin freely, like the lube isn't spread evenly on the axis and shaft. Compared to my previous DD table, that table can stay spinning for well over a minute after turning off the motor.
 
Also I found out that the badly warped Hi-Fi News Test Record that I have had been somewhat flattened out during storage. Since I sold off my previous table, I kept my records away in a box horizontally for a year plus probably. Had my brother send them here through postage and after several days of intense prayers (parcel got stuck for the weekends), all the records arrived unscathed.
 
Tested out the alignment and tracking force for the table according to a link where someone with the same tonearm+cart combo had good results with 1.6g (Rega RB101+Rega Carbon). One thing that irked me was that the arm has no azimuth setting. It does have some channel imbalance on the azimuth testing track, but only audible upon scrutiny with headphones. The cart tracks well, unfortunately it fails on the 2nd last "torture track" as compared to my previous table+AT440MLa only slightly failing on the last torture track test. Antiskate works well in the test tracks, but when the stylus is needledropped on empty sections of the record it biases outward and doesn't stay put even though the antiskate has been set correctly. Anyone know why this happen?
 
Arm resonated like a gong during the 12-14Hz resonance test track, so I might dampen them. Aside from these, for the kind of money you pay they're and ok table if you can look past the plasticky plinth, subplatter, and platter. As how analogsurviver had said, compromi$e$.
 
Also probably unrelated, scored myself a pair of Sennheiser HD525 for only $41 today (MYR155 local currency). They sound very similar to the HD650/HD600 given they came from the same family, and their parts can be interchanged as well. I might get myself HD650 drivers since they're compatible.
 
***edit
 
One more thing I forgot to mention, the speed seem to be unstable. It's most noticeable during long single note passages such as the electric guitar in Wish You Were Here. The fluctuating speed fluctuates the pitch as well, there seem to be no pattern like "wowowowowo" but it fluctuates randomly.

 

[Skylab]

If the platter won't spin freely with the belt removed from the motor spindle, and the speed is fluctuating audibly, the turntable is not working properly and needs to be repaired.