TURNTABLE SETUP Questions thread - don't start a new thread, ASK YOUR QUESTION HERE!
Apr 13, 2015 at 4:49 PM Post #3,061 of 3,585
Just get a cheap new iPod Nano Shuffle instead?  $50.  Or that Sandisk thing I can't think of its name right now.   Oh, Clip.
 
It's a real shame so many new artists are price gouging with their vinyl.  Trendy trendy.  I stopped buying it, actually.  It's too much, especially when they're not perfectly flat, thick discs that sound good.  Had too many new releases that just don't sound good.
 
I don't get the whole, automatic turntable thing at all.
 
Apr 13, 2015 at 5:27 PM Post #3,062 of 3,585
  Just get a cheap new iPod Nano Shuffle instead?  $50.  Or that Sandisk thing I can't think of its name right now.   Oh, Clip.
 
It's a real shame so many new artists are price gouging with their vinyl.  Trendy trendy.  I stopped buying it, actually.  It's too much, especially when they're not perfectly flat, thick discs that sound good.  Had too many new releases that just don't sound good.
 
I don't get the whole, automatic turntable thing at all.

Regarding automatics - here one of the most advanced - programmable even:
 

 
It is the inexpensive version of the SL-15, with SL-QL 15 in between pricewise. And was perfected in the latest incarnation, SL-J 3; as records are NOT pressed on centre, the reading in the above first gen was affected by this, and by programming the stylus could land a few grooves before or after it should have - cutting before the true end of the selection or starting a few moments after the actual beginning of a song. 2nd gen reached the proper solution to the problem - instead of landing exactly where it should have, it lands the stylus a few grooves before - and not releasing mute until it reaches silence between the grooves. Thus, you get the song intact, as intended, EVERY time. It works well with normal black records, might have trouble with translucent or picture discs.
 
Such TTs are VERY friendly to the lady of the house or children. 
 
As anyone with broken $$$ stylus due to the above "predators" can atest. Not to mention the greatest nemesis of them all, The Cleaning Lady. 
 
Properly modified, these Technics tables, programmable or not, hold their own sonically against anything. 
 
Apr 13, 2015 at 5:36 PM Post #3,063 of 3,585
One other cartridge to consider in the under $50 range is the Red Ed : http://www.edsaunders.com/reded.htm

You want the "expensive" one, the $28 Elliptical one.
 
Apr 13, 2015 at 5:51 PM Post #3,064 of 3,585
Haha. I'm going to try to do both. I like to listen a lot while walking. And 2 of my favorite artist putting out new releases for close to $40 are almost ruining it for me as well. It's a shame they have to take advantage like that.

Didn't know how people messed up records and stylus until last night when the technics tone arm jumped out of my hand. For some reason I felt like doing a manual drop and it turned out to be a bad move. Cant believe thats all it took, didnt even see a mark on the record, good thing it wasn't one I care about. Thats one thing I don't like about the Technics is that resistance of the tone arm when its starting up the motor. Is there a way to improve that other than converting it to a manual?


Manual needle dropping is another reason why i went with the SL7. Never will a shaky hand or some other cause cause my records to get damaged.

Sorry, i don't have a solution for your problem though.
 
Apr 13, 2015 at 6:06 PM Post #3,065 of 3,585
Well I should have just used automatic. :) I was dropping manual for a while before I found out how to fix the needle missing on auto. Just for some reason I went to do a manual drop and may have put too much pressure when it was resisting and when it got to the point when it wasn't, it just flew from my hand. My JVC doesn't have this resistance, the motor just starts up when the arm gets to a certain spot. Maybe because the JVC is more modern?
 
Could some lubrication reduce this resistance or is that how it's supposed to be?
 
Apr 13, 2015 at 6:55 PM Post #3,067 of 3,585
  Well I should have just used automatic. :) I was dropping manual for a while before I found out how to fix the needle missing on auto. Just for some reason I went to do a manual drop and may have put too much pressure when it was resisting and when it got to the point when it wasn't, it just flew from my hand. My JVC doesn't have this resistance, the motor just starts up when the arm gets to a certain spot. Maybe because the JVC is more modern?
 
Could some lubrication reduce this resistance or is that how it's supposed to be?

You should download the service manual from vinylengine for your Technics - or the next similar model. It should not be sooo tight to cause flying off the hand.
 
Apr 13, 2015 at 7:16 PM Post #3,068 of 3,585
Yeah I have it but haven't looked yet. It's really not that bad and I should have held the handle better, or just used the damn autostart. I was bored and not so into the record but felt I should go ahead and play the other side. Ive done a manual drop on it plenty of times without a problem but felt like this could happen. I will definitely be more careful with the next cartridge. When I opened it up last week I saw some white plastic parts with some greasy looking lube that I think are responsible for this so maybe I will look into that in the mean time.
 
update: Just had a look inside and Im pretty sure thats just how it is normally. There is a little roller that pinches between 2 plastic things and when it released the resistance goes away. It's not that strong, I just spazed.
 
Apr 17, 2015 at 9:07 AM Post #3,069 of 3,585
  Australia is a "strange" place for phono equipment.  The prices can fluctuate wildly and in the conditions of limited supply it can mean all sorts of things.
 
Try to see if there are any Ortofon cartridges at nice prices left down under - there were times prices were nice enough for importing them back to Europe, regardless of customs etc. They used to be on australian ebay - but it seems this source has dried up according to today's "pass" on the australian ebay.
 
Anyone looking for good entry level cart should not overlook Acoutex 412 STR : ebay # 261840304007 from Italy. http://www.ebay.de/itm/PUNTINA-ACUTEX-412-STR-PER-GIRADISCHI-INTROVABILE-STYLUS-FOR-TURNTABLE-NUOVA-/261840304007?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_101&hash=item3c
 
It is NOT, or was NOT an entry level cart - but not TOTL either. You can Google Acoutex http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=528291 - and will not be able to find practically anything negative about it. As it is out of production for decades and styli are unonbtainium, it makes sense to buy one for "test" - and then stock up on cartridges at these prices. True, TOTL models are gone - but presently available 412 STR certainly is more than competitive at the price.


 
Do you know the compliance? 4g cart in a 12g arm?
 
I would rather not get a red ed. I have listened to a few needle drops on youtube for comparison and I'm not sure what I should be looking at. I like detail but it is not a high priority of mine.
I have looked at some popular ortofons, ATs, shure, and even a couple of higher end carts. Something in the mids of the 2M bronze sounds ****ed up to me, but the 2M black sounds dull and closed in compared to the bronze. I certainly prefer the OC9 to the 440MLa. The nagaoka's I heard sounded pretty good, though they were bass heavy. I'm unsure whether that was the set up/vinyl or the cart/stylus itself.
That's the other thing, it doesn't matter how many samples I listen to, it doesn't tell me what it will sound like with my set up.
 
I don't really have a price limit but I'd like to keep it <100 including postage if I could. I was going to buy a stylus and put it in my stock cartridge.
 
Apr 17, 2015 at 9:53 AM Post #3,070 of 3,585
 
 
Do you know the compliance? 4g cart in a 12g arm?
 
I would rather not get a red ed. I have listened to a few needle drops on youtube for comparison and I'm not sure what I should be looking at. I like detail but it is not a high priority of mine.
I have looked at some popular ortofons, ATs, shure, and even a couple of higher end carts. Something in the mids of the 2M bronze sounds ****ed up to me, but the 2M black sounds dull and closed in compared to the bronze. I certainly prefer the OC9 to the 440MLa. The nagaoka's I heard sounded pretty good, though they were bass heavy. I'm unsure whether that was the set up/vinyl or the cart/stylus itself.
That's the other thing, it doesn't matter how many samples I listen to, it doesn't tell me what it will sound like with my set up.
 
I don't really have a price limit but I'd like to keep it <100 including postage if I could. I was going to buy a stylus and put it in my stock cartridge.

Please go trough the Audiokarma link I posted - compliance is listed "somewhere". Here you go:
 
M412STR
Color of body, Gray
Stylus case, Red (N412STR)
Frequency response, 20 - 35 KHz
Channel separation, 30 dB at 1KHz and 27dB at 10KHz
Output Voltage (min), 3.5mV at 1KHz (5cm/sec)
Channel Balance, withinb 1dB at 1KHz
DC resistance, 710 ohm
Load resistance, 47 Kohm
Stylus, STR
Compliance, 24 X 10-⁶ cm/dyne
Tracking force, 1.3 - 2.1 g
Weight, 4.0 g
Overall Dimensions 29 X 18 X 16 mm
Mounting, 12.7 mm (1/2")
 
STR stylus means Shibata Tri Radial - you need to stretch to Ortofon Bronze Black in current production to get comparable stylus. At more than 10 times the price. 
 
However, I have LONG ago stopped to rely on any published compliance figures - either from the MFR or from the reviews. At best, it is a RANGE - and your sample may well fall outside that range even. One thing is for sure - if the resonant frequency ends up beig too high, you can always add mass ( brass screws, heavier headshell, lead "shims", etc)  ; if it is the other way around, the resonant frequency being too low, that means getting a (very) low mass arm - $$$. Test record will tell you how your combo behaves in practice - it should fall in the range between 8 and 12 HZ for optimum results. My personal favourite is around 8 Hz, if and when the Q of the resonance is not too high (resonance not too sharp) - otherwise there is no way but getting it somewhat higher in frequency ( lighter screws, headshell, removal of all "dingleberries" ( stylus guards, brushes etc )) ; if all that fails, lighter arm is required.
 
Of course, first punch the nominal data in the resonance frequency calculator - like http://www.resfreq.com/resonancecalculator.html - to eliminate those combinations that are way outside desired 8-12 Hz range. If I put the (4 + 12 +1)g and 24 compliance in, the result is 7.879 Hz - indicating the 12g tonearm is at the high range for mass with this cartridge - but still OK. Definitely the cart is not too light - except if your tonearm can not balance 4 g cart and still allow for enough VTF. 
 
As the "rubber" in the suspension ages, it usually becomes a bit harder - less compliant. In your case, this is good. The vendor in question sold MANY Acoutex carts - and not a single complaint on any forum regarding suspension being shot.
 
With MM cartridges, there is almost zero chances you can trust a needledrop - because the electrical load can vary all over the place and you are unlikely to be capable of duplicating it - exactly - in your system. 
 
Things are a bit easier with moving coil cartridges - these, due to their far lesser vulnerability to load, sound much more"the same" regardless of the electrical load. You still get differences due to the table, arm, preamp and recorder used for the needledrop - but these are much less pronounced than electrical load for the MMs.
 
Do you have the ability to play moving coil cartridges - can your phono preamp handle MCs ?
 
Apr 18, 2015 at 12:33 PM Post #3,071 of 3,585
Hello everyone, I have recently had a bunch of awesome gear dropped into my lap by my uncle, however, I need a phono preamp and I'm not sure where to start.
 
I received an old Linn LP12, not sure of the upgrades or anything as I haven't taken it apart.  It came with a Zeta tonearm and a Benz Micro Glider M2 MC cartridge.  
Through some googling I've found that the cartridge outputs .8mV and has an impedance of 24ohms.  Currently I'm using a mid 80s onkyo integrated amp as the phono pre.
I don't really know where to go from here.  It sounds better than my digital setup but I can't help but feel the onkyo is really limiting it especially since the Benz is a rather strange output.
 
So my main questions are: 
What sort of price range should I look in to match a phono preamp to this setup?
What price range will at least beat the old onkyo?
 
Thanks,
John
 
Apr 18, 2015 at 12:52 PM Post #3,072 of 3,585
  Hello everyone, I have recently had a bunch of awesome gear dropped into my lap by my uncle, however, I need a phono preamp and I'm not sure where to start.
 
I received an old Linn LP12, not sure of the upgrades or anything as I haven't taken it apart.  It came with a Zeta tonearm and a Benz Micro Glider M2 MC cartridge.  
Through some googling I've found that the cartridge outputs .8mV and has an impedance of 24ohms.  Currently I'm using a mid 80s onkyo integrated amp as the phono pre.
I don't really know where to go from here.  It sounds better than my digital setup but I can't help but feel the onkyo is really limiting it especially since the Benz is a rather strange output.
 
So my main questions are: 
What sort of price range should I look in to match a phono preamp to this setup?
What price range will at least beat the old onkyo?
 
Thanks,
John

Hi, John !
 
Any surplus uncles with Linns and Zetas ? That was very generous of him - Zeta arms never grew on trees.
 
I would leave it as it is for now. Onkyo stuff can be VERY high quality - please note the exact model.
 
0.8mV cart should be non problematic even with reasonably good MM phono input - you do not need MC setting by default. The only drawback in real life is that you have to turn the volume knob (way) higher than for the same perceived volume on say CD. And if this is the case, you will have to grow a habit to reduce the volume when switching sources - for the sake of your hearing, as well as possible damage to headphones or speakers.
 
If you must fiddle with new phono preamp - Schiit Mani looks like all necessary/no frills/solid/reasonably priced product, capable of accommodating practically any magnetic cartridge ( save most probably the ultra low output models ) due to its numerous gain settings..
 
Apr 18, 2015 at 1:27 PM Post #3,073 of 3,585
Thanks for the advice, the Onkyo model is the integra A8190.  It is quite nice sounding so far.  The reason I've been looking for a phono preamp is I'd like to use the once as an integrated amp in another system.  I use either headphones or a Mark Levinson 29 (from the same uncle).  
 
I have read some good things about the mani.  May consider giving it a try for the money.
 
John
 
Apr 18, 2015 at 1:52 PM Post #3,074 of 3,585
  Thanks for the advice, the Onkyo model is the integra A8190.  It is quite nice sounding so far.  The reason I've been looking for a phono preamp is I'd like to use the once as an integrated amp in another system.  I use either headphones or a Mark Levinson 29 (from the same uncle).  
 
I have read some good things about the mani.  May consider giving it a try for the money.
 
John

Quite a guy, that uncle of yours (ML 29) ! Did he gave you perhaps Beveridge 2SW, for which you can not find a single use on your continent 
rolleyes.gif
?
 
( Just kidding...)
 
As suspected, that Onkyo has nothing to be ashamed of : http://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/onkyo/a-8190.shtml
 
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=348372
 
If I understand you correctly, you plan to use your TT and ML29 together in one system - and need only phono preamp - or at least some form of volume control - or added switching - or line level preamp as well ? Trouble is - ALL of this you already have in the A-8190.
 
There is vintage receiver thread - with tips and suggestions how to "play it again Sam" - restoring vintage gear, specially better models, can make much $en$e
http://www.head-fi.org/t/537704/calling-all-vintage-integrated-receiver-owners
 
I would try to get Mani with the possibility to return it if does not (significantly) improve upon the Onkyo. From there on, it should be clear what to do.
 

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