[Shaffer]

Not to be rude and intrusive, but analogsurviver is actually a recording engineer. A good one at that. He does have friends in the audio industry.

That's great and has very little to do with getting one's hands on a master and a consequent LP pressing. Honestly, this is embarrassing.

Edit: As there seems to be some misunderstanding as to the flow of the recording process, an engineer is responsible for hooking up the equipment, positioning the mics (often under the guidance of the producer), and perhaps sitting behind a desk making sure the levels don't exceed their max. Then, his job is done and a mixing engineer comes in to work on the (err...) mix. Sometimes the mix is referred to as a master tape. Once that's over, and there are several ways of approaching the task with a given mastering style in mind, the recording then goes through the mastering process yielding - ta-da! - the master tape.

I have connections (if you can all it that), as well, and can get my hands on a master and the subsequent release in a matter of hours. It's digital, so it doesn't count. I can also get my hands on a 3rd generation tape of side-1 of A Love Supreme pretty quickly. Do I have the corresponding pressing, even though I own 3 others? Of course not!

 

[penmarker]

k.

 

[Skylab]

I hesitate to side with you, Schaffer, because I think you're being ruder to AnalogSurviver than he deserves - he is a knowledgable and very helpful person in this thread!

That's said, I have the MFSL reissue of Garcia / Grisman, and the 15 ips 2-track reel (available from tapeproject.com), and the tape beats the pants off the vinyl, even though the vinyl is itself spectacular.

 

[analogsurviver]

Heh, good luck with that. FYI, a 3rd generation copy is ~$600 and there's a year's waiting list. The odds of you finding one and actually buying it, and then locating the appropriate pressing is a pipe dream. Friends who work in a studio who can get you the master (ie. post-mastering) and the pressing that originated from the tape? Is this a joke? Clearly, you have no idea as to the recording process, either. I really don't understand how you can make these unequivocal statements, and then do nothing to acknowledge your frequent mistakes. I only point them out when it's too absurd to ignore. Is it so hard to say that you misspoke, instead of all this silliness?

Well, I AM aware of these prices. And there are very few recordings I would find it worth to go to these lengths. 
 
Contrary to what you are obviously limited to, I intend to make comparisons with #00001 copy - the ACTUAL #00001 recording - or master made for the pressing of the disks, with a well preserved samples of the originally issues on vinyl. I own ALL of the LPs in my previous post, with the exception of the green Pengov; I have a re-issue in brown sleeve, which also differs slightly in sonics, which I bought the moment it came out. ( the music and particularly lyrics are WAY above the level 13 year old, which I was at the time of original release, issued by the by now late artist himself, sold only at his EXTREMELY rare concerts, is capable of understanding and appreciating).There are a few NOS Pengov LPs ( first edition, green sleeve, limited to 1000 pcs, from 1973 ) still available - but at a price that dwarf the 3rd copy price mentioned. And I know the man who actually recorded it, Mr. Aco Razbornik, not somebody else, removed who knows how many steps from the source. Mr. Razbornik is still fully active in studio - now, after the original Studio Akademik burned down, re-located in his house.
 
Before you post such nonsense again, ask yourself one thing - do you really think you know it all ? On another continent, in a country that had VERY different  social order only 25 years ago, let alone in 1973 ?
 
I know I do not - but what I wrote, I do back it. 
 
Clear enough ?

 

[Arsis]

Garrard 440m... thoughts or experience with this model? Entry level, mid-70's right? I'm picking it up today for $20 @ a thrift store. Mainly because my wife wants a changer. From the pics I saw it appears in great condition. I'll post pics later.

 

[RUMAY408]

Garrard 440m... thoughts or experience with this model? Entry level, mid-70's right? I'm picking it up today for $20 @ a thrift store. Mainly because my wife wants a changer. From the pics I saw it appears in great condition. I'll post pics later.

Condition is everything and you'll need a new cart, good luck and hope to see the pics

I hesitate to side with you, Schaffer, because I think you're being ruder to AnalogSurviver than he deserves - he is a knowledgable and very helpful person in this thread!

That's said, I have the MFSL reissue of Garcia / Grisman, and the 15 ips 2-track reel (available from tapeproject.com), and the tape beats the pants off the vinyl, even though the vinyl is itself spectacular.

I love audio, but I'm a hobbyist at best. I heard a really nice Reel to Reel setup when I was young, and it changed the way I thought about audio (not a master tape) of Traffic's "Shoot Out At The Fantasy Factory"
 
Master tape discussion from people in the know, is jaw dropping good stuff.  
 
Thank you Schaffer, AnalogSurvivor and Skylab. 

 

[JamieMcC]

I have been really enjoying vinyl of late a new diy Nelson Pass amp ACA has transformed listening with my HE6 ( I'm a hd800 guy) and well it seems I start a record then simply loose track of time and all of a sudden its time to play side two, this is happening LP after LP

 

 

[iamxLn]

Is there any reason to not get an AT LP120 over the project debut if I have a chance to get a brand new AT120 for $150?

What is the go-to audio technica cartridges? I have a chance to get them pretty cheap as well.

 

[analogsurviver]

Is there any reason to not get an AT LP120 over the project debut if I have a chance to get a brand new AT120 for $150?

What is the go-to audio technica cartridges? I have a chance to get them pretty cheap as well.

AT does have a better TT than LP120 - since you can get AT products at a cost, the LP1240 might be a better choice. I do not have direct experience with it yet.
 
However, Project Debut is a very solid TT, and one which can be significantly improved in sound quality for ridiculously low amount of money ( on the order of say two menus at McDonald's) . Its main drawback is a faintly audible rumble coming from the motor.
 
AT has recently (quietly...) downgraded their cartridges, both of their most interesting carts being affected. AT 440 MLb now sports a simplified cantilever compared to earlier MLa ( there are reports change occurred in the last batch(es) of MLa as well, without any notice ) . The difference is easy to see - the old, better cantilevers have matt appearance, the new lower quality is shiny aluminium.
 
The inductance of the AT 100e cartridge has been changed (again without any notice ) to a standard higher value of most AT carts; clever audiophiles did figure out the body of the AT-100e with lower inductance + ATN-150MLX stylus equals AT-150 MLX cartridge ( save for colour ) - and, unfortunately, so did the AT marketing department ...
 
Although this is most likely overkill and over budget, AT-33PTG is a great MC cartridge, specially if you have phono input that can accommodate MCs and you can get it at cost.

 

[Shaffer]

Although this is most likely overkill and over budget, AT-33PTG is a great MC cartridge, specially if you have phono input that can accommodate MCs and you can get it at cost.

I run a AT33PTG/II. It transfers a lot of energy back into the arm. On an arm such as the one on an AT 'table, it'll essentially act like a basketball bouncing around the groove chipping away at the LP. Literally. It's also very challenging to setup optimally. Very poor advice.

 

[analogsurviver]

I run a AT33PTG/II. It transfers a lot of energy back into the arm. On an arm such as the one on an AT 'table, it'll essentially act like a basketball bouncing around the groove chipping away at the LP. Literally. It's also very challenging to setup optimally. Very poor advice.

I did say it would probably be overkill.
 
Project Debut could accomodate AT33 PTG/II. I agree any cartridge with Micro Line stylus is VERY challenging for setup. The Debut arm lacks azimuth adjustment - but so do Rega and SME arms ( to note just the most widespread ones ).
 
Audio Technica cartridges, ALL of them, are also notorious for azimuth variations. Chances to get a cartridge/stylus from AT that is truly perpendicular to the record as far as azimuth is concerned is lower than about 2 %. Luckily, this is relatively easy to fix. 

 

[penmarker]

I've recently installed an AT95e loaned from a friend and I have to rotate the cart that it is visibly tilted to correct the azimuth. I think if an arm has no azimuth setting, its a no-go.

 

[analogsurviver]

  I've recently installed an AT95e loaned from a friend and I have to rotate the cart that it is visibly tilted to correct the azimuth. I think if an arm has no azimuth setting, its a no-go.

Audio Technica carts CAN be adjusted for azimuth. But it is not for faint at heart or those with trembling arms/fingers. 
 
Otherwise, an arm that does allow for azimuth adjustment is absolutely required.

 

[Shaffer]

I did say it would probably be overkill.

Project Debut could accomodate AT33 PTG/II.

...if you say so.

I agree any cartridge with Micro Line stylus is VERY challenging for setup.

This one, specifically, is quite challenging. No, all carts with ML styli are as difficult to setup. Witness the original Lyra Lydian, if you owned one. With a modern SME or a Graham arm, a 2 minute job.

The Debut arm lacks azimuth adjustment - but so do Rega and SME arms ( to note just the most widespread ones ).

It also lacks bearings that won't chatter due to the energy of the cart.

Audio Technica cartridges, ALL of them, are also notorious for azimuth variations. Chances to get a cartridge/stylus from AT that is truly perpendicular to the record as far as azimuth is concerned is lower than about 2 %. Luckily, this is relatively easy to fix. 

How did you come up with the 2%? lol

FWIW, neither of the 2 PTGs I've owned and the 3 OC9s of various vintages needed an azimuth adjustment, and I align the cantilever.

 

[analogsurviver]

...if you say so.
This one, specifically, is quite challenging. No, all carts with ML styli are as difficult to setup. Witness the original Lyra Lydian, if you owned one. With a modern SME or a Graham arm, a 2 minute job.
It also lacks bearings that won't chatter due to the energy of the cart.
How did you come up with the 2%? lol

FWIW, neither of the 2 PTGs I've owned and the 3 OC9s of various vintages needed an azimuth adjustment, and I align the cantilever.

If you measure the channel separation and output of the cartridge, you will come to the same conclusion about 2 % (or so ). It is in no way only AT's fault, but due to the construction it is the most likely to happen in an AT cart/stylus.
 
Setting up a ML equipped cartridge in SME in 2 minutes ? That would be the Mother LoL of all LoL's ...
 
You must have been the luckiest guy in the world with your 5 ATs, neither of which required azimuth correction.
 
FYI, with really good cartridges, azimuth for anything equal to or better than 35 dB of channel separation is in 1/3rd or less of a degree. You can not "eyeball", it has to be measured . Kuzma did provide for a thin line on its Reference arm - trouble is, that thinnest of lines that can be engraved on the arm tube is FAR thicker than the 1/3 of a degree azimuth correction requires. Luckily, at least the mechanism that turns this azimuth adjustment is free of play and is repeatable.
 
SME claims, IIRC, azimuth correct to 0.01 degree in SME V. Great - IF there was a cartridge of anything even approaching this accuracy. Compared to cartridge manufacturers, tonearm manufacturers have incomparably easier time; SME V has roughly 40 mm between ball races, a typical high quality stylus has 0.1 mm - and from this is easy to understand, that ANY error in mounting the diamond results in much more error than those 0.01 degree in bearing arrangement. Then compare the size of the tonearm tube and that of cantilever, etc, etc. But the biggest error usually occurs at the very end, by having the suspension not checked for the azimuth.
 
Because it is EXTREMELY HARD on the person doing this. And time consuming - which translates into expensive. I did adjust each and every cartridge while working at Benz's back in the day to perfection, as the construction does allow for azimuth adjustment once everything else has been set - a feature which AT , any of them, lacks. But frankly, at the end of the day I was devastated and could well understand the hidden laughter/mockery from other workers who were there longer. Such concentration is beyond what is sustainable for a human being in the long run.
 
That final adjustment has true place in conjunction with the actual arm with which it will be used. If I merely mention the Rega arms, which do not even have lapped surface of the headshell that comes in contact with the cartridge - how on earth do you think a perfect cartridge ( assume for the moment it exists in the first place ) would do regarding azimuth in something that rough ?
 
It is a matter of economics. Few can afford a SME arm, to be dwarfed in price with something like Blue Diamond Reference. 
 
Which is, roughly, a 35K $ cart. For which one could expect, well - demand, to be straight.
 
It is perfectly possible to select out of multitude of samples, AT included, cartridges/styli that can, with the correct azimuth adjustment, provide superb end result. 
 
This works, except in cases where manufacturer itself does the selection. Grado is such a case, where the same stylus off the assembly line is tested for tolerance and, in case of Grado, color coded, from black to gold. Clearaudio used to do the same way back in time, but this time the name of the model changed, specs largely remaining the same except for the channel separation - and each 2 dB increment made larger hole in your pocket. Ortofon also did have some cartridges with the Supreme suffix after the model - guaranteeing 35 or more dB separation. At roughly two to three times the price of the plain vanilla version.
 
Need I to go on ?
 
BTW - that arm on Debut is not so poor as you say; it is decent enough, if you are lucky or if you can adjust the bearings by yourself. Here, we crash into economics again; Project even sells the Adjust.It tool for this very purpose.
 
Again, if you want perfect bearings from the factory, Herr Breuer in Switzerland will still make you one true Breuer arm - if you rattle with enough pocket money .
 
If you want bearing quality "above any shadow of a doubt", for around 7K there is ingenious Kuzma 4Point ( superb sounding arm) and at merely 5 times the price, there is Vertere ( which I have yet to see in person ). Both have zero bearing chatter - by design, down to the molecular level.
 
Both allow for azimuth adjustment, too.