Tubes vs solid state?
Jan 24, 2010 at 12:03 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 19

sinesurfer

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Hey all,

I'm a very new member to the forums and the world of headphones in general, so I guess you could say my knowledge is kinda limited. I'm in the market to upgrade from my entry-level headphone setup, and as I keep looking over different amps, I see that two major variants are tube amps and solid state amps. I was wondering- what are the major differences between the two and/or pros and cons?

For instance, two amps I'm considering at the moment are the WA6SE (w/ pico DAC) and the HeadRoom BUDA (w/ HeadRoom Ultra Desktop DAC). What sorts of sonic differences might you hear between the two?

Any help is GREATLY appreciated! Thanks guys!
 
Jan 24, 2010 at 12:32 AM Post #2 of 19
It is difficult to draw major distinctions between the two. You'll hear opinions that tubes are "warmer," but that isn't true for every tube amp. Not all solid state amps are cold and sterile, either. The sound you get depends on the way the circuit was designed and what parts were used. Further, the sound an amp makes depends on the headphones you're using it with. There are a few things like output impedance curves, power, etc. that will make an amp sound different depending on headphones.

More generally, I prefer tubes because they use simpler circuits, lend themselves to repair instead of replacement and because tubes have been in production for decades and likely will continue to be. When chips go out of production, remaining stock disappears and become impossible to find in a year or two. Anyone wanting to put them back into production faces a mountain of IP problems, too. Most tube designs are public domain today and can be reproduced without trouble. Tubes also used in guitar amps are plentiful and easy to find.

If you DIY, tubes can be easier to deal with. Solid state usually requires PCBs. Those are easy enough to stuff, but you can go point-to-point with tubes and adapt it into whatever case you have. Point-to-point is easy to repair, too. Tube amps also use fewer parts, so they're simpler to wire up.

Another difference is that it costs less to build a good solid state amp (and I do like some solid state amps, for the record) amp than a good tube amp. This is in the power supply, mostly. Solid state usually operates at 24V or less, making power transformers less costly. Most solid state amps are tightly regulated, too, with low cost parts.

Tubes need a high voltage power supply, usually between 250V and 400V. That takes bigger, better made transformers. If you want to regulate a tube power supply well, you'll need bigger, more costly capacitors and - hopefully - at least one choke. More chokes are better, though a choke costs almost as much as the power transformer. You can also improve things with tube rectifiers but that costs more, too. In very inexpensive tube amps, you'll find diode rectifiers, a cheap transformer and cheap, smaller capacitors. Those are usually inferior to the power supply found on a solid state amp that costs the same or less.

My advice is to go with solid state if you're on a budget. You'll get more amp for the money. If you want tubes - and they are wonderful - you have to pay more.

You can get great sound from either solid state or tubes. Just avoid the really cheap tube amps - you'll get the glowing tube, but not their full potential. The power supply
is the most important part and solid state does good power supplies for less money than you can with tubes.
 
Jan 24, 2010 at 12:56 AM Post #3 of 19
AWESOME! Thank you so much Uncle Erik! I feel like I learned more in your reply than I did in a month of looking around on the internet- I'll definitely refer back to this!

Yeah, since I'm looking to splurge a bit (I've already spent a decent chunk of time with a Fubar III + Power supply and I wanna move up), I figure I'll probably go with the tube stuff. My top contender is the WA6SE, although I'm still investigating the DAC issue (others have mentioned the pico DAC favorably so I'm leaning on that). On a side note, I wonder if the differences between solid-state DACs and tube DACs are analogous to those of headphone amps?

Thank you so much once again Uncle Erik, I really appreciate it!
 
Jan 24, 2010 at 12:59 AM Post #4 of 19
As UE says, tubes are inherently more because of the high voltage circuits. Solid state offers a lot for cost so are a better value.

If cost isn't at the top of the decision pyramid go tubes. Keep in mind the cost of components to a good tube power supply will be more than a budget tube amp. Where do those savings come from, components in the power supply.

As for sources, you can use a tube output dac/cdp to feed a solid state amp and vis versa to tweek your synergy. I use both tube DAC and amp.
 
Jan 24, 2010 at 2:03 AM Post #5 of 19
@ Uncle Erik - What do you mean by "really cheap" tube amps? I'm on a budget and looking for a tube amp for DT880/600Ohm. I've been looking at the Audiotailor Jade or Little Dot MKlV. What's your take on them?

Also, what's your take on OTL tube amps for driving Grado RS1i? I'd like to have a tube amp that will warm up both the RS1i and DT880/600 if possible fed off ibasso D4 dac.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread. The answers should help the op as well.
 
Jan 24, 2010 at 2:26 AM Post #6 of 19
Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif
It is difficult to draw major distinctions between the two. You'll hear opinions that tubes are "warmer," but that isn't true for every tube amp. Not all solid state amps are cold and sterile, either. The sound you get depends on the way the circuit was designed and what parts were used. Further, the sound an amp makes depends on the headphones you're using it with. There are a few things like output impedance curves, power, etc. that will make an amp sound different depending on headphones.

More generally, I prefer tubes because they use simpler circuits, lend themselves to repair instead of replacement and because tubes have been in production for decades and likely will continue to be. When chips go out of production, remaining stock disappears and become impossible to find in a year or two. Anyone wanting to put them back into production faces a mountain of IP problems, too. Most tube designs are public domain today and can be reproduced without trouble. Tubes also used in guitar amps are plentiful and easy to find.

If you DIY, tubes can be easier to deal with. Solid state usually requires PCBs. Those are easy enough to stuff, but you can go point-to-point with tubes and adapt it into whatever case you have. Point-to-point is easy to repair, too. Tube amps also use fewer parts, so they're simpler to wire up.

Another difference is that it costs less to build a good solid state amp (and I do like some solid state amps, for the record) amp than a good tube amp. This is in the power supply, mostly. Solid state usually operates at 24V or less, making power transformers less costly. Most solid state amps are tightly regulated, too, with low cost parts.

Tubes need a high voltage power supply, usually between 250V and 400V. That takes bigger, better made transformers. If you want to regulate a tube power supply well, you'll need bigger, more costly capacitors and - hopefully - at least one choke. More chokes are better, though a choke costs almost as much as the power transformer. You can also improve things with tube rectifiers but that costs more, too. In very inexpensive tube amps, you'll find diode rectifiers, a cheap transformer and cheap, smaller capacitors. Those are usually inferior to the power supply found on a solid state amp that costs the same or less.

My advice is to go with solid state if you're on a budget. You'll get more amp for the money. If you want tubes - and they are wonderful - you have to pay more.

You can get great sound from either solid state or tubes. Just avoid the really cheap tube amps - you'll get the glowing tube, but not their full potential. The power supply
is the most important part and solid state does good power supplies for less money than you can with tubes.



At frist time in head-fi history, I 101% agree with Uncle Eric
wink.gif
Also you can roll tubes with tube amp for fine tone adjustment, which is very important to me.
 
Jan 24, 2010 at 2:55 AM Post #7 of 19
Quote:

Originally Posted by dongringo /img/forum/go_quote.gif
@ Uncle Erik - What do you mean by "really cheap" tube amps?


I was wondering this as well. I'm looking to try a hybrid tube/SS amp, and I'm looking to spend under $200. (More like $150). And several amps I'm looking at around this price point are raved about here and elsewhere (Little Dot I+, Starving Student Mini Millet, Head-Direct EF2) so I find it hard to believe they are just decent and I should look for another SS instead (I have an X-Head which I find fine, even good, but it is my first and only amp so I have little to reference besides the headphone outs on various amps/receivers).

Also not trying to derail the thread but this seems on topic.

And welcome to Head-Fi sinesurfer; I think you picked the place to learn about cans, amps, dacs, etc., more than you could possibly hope to take in!
normal_smile .gif
 
Jan 24, 2010 at 4:29 AM Post #8 of 19
@ Pariah1 Thanks for the welcome! I've been looking at the forums off and on over the last few months, and I guess I got over my fear of looking like I have absolutely no idea of what I'm talking about. And don't worry about derailing the thread, I find all of this very relevant and very informative
biggrin.gif
 
Jan 24, 2010 at 4:48 AM Post #10 of 19
For that price I think the hybrid Little Dot is a good start.
 
Jan 24, 2010 at 5:57 AM Post #11 of 19
tubes look cool and all, but i havent heard one that i liked yet.

you can roll opamp chips in certain solid states. i guess it's like rolling tubes, but easier to find and you dont really have to match them.

solid state amps don't have to use ICs eg. Dynalo*, CKKIII*, Beta22

or if you want to roll opamps, then go M3, PPAv2, and there are probably many hybrids apache, etc.
 
Jan 24, 2010 at 6:04 AM Post #12 of 19
Tubes are an addiction, be careful!
 
Jan 24, 2010 at 7:26 AM Post #13 of 19
Thanks for the replies everyone!

One thing I've seemed to notice people discussing regarding tube amps is a burn-in period- like, having to use the amp for several hundred hours before it really 'opens up'. Is this indeed the case with tube amps? Is it also applicable to solid state amps?

Also, I should probably consider another solid state amp before I get completely set on tubes... are there any solid state amps in the $1000-$1500 that might be worth checking out?

Thanks guys!
 
Jan 24, 2010 at 7:37 AM Post #14 of 19
What uncle erik said.......along with the tubes can be an addiction poster.
I lke hybrids.....hehe tube amps require more burn in than ss.....in my opinion even dac's need burn in (no flames from non-believers please)
 
Jan 24, 2010 at 9:19 AM Post #15 of 19
Hope i don step into the wrong topic.

I see ss amp with claims like 100W , 200W etc.
However most Tube amps in comparism throw out tiny 8W, 12W, 21 W etc and they cost much more than the SS amps... ... MOst of the times i am a little confused..... The idea i get is more power output = More $$... which is one of the 1st thign manufacurer claims .. apparently it works differently when we comparing Tubes vs SS...
 

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