'Transparent' reference headphones.
May 11, 2003 at 3:36 AM Post #16 of 34
I would of course say the DT531 and the DT880. (maybe the DT990 if you want a closed headphone).

some others like the way the A900, A1000 and W1000 re-produce acoustic guitar.

wouldn't using a too laid back headphone produce hot mixes, and hot headphones produce laid back mixes?
 
May 11, 2003 at 3:43 AM Post #17 of 34
Quote:

Originally posted by wallijonn
I would of course say the DT531 and the DT880. (maybe the DT990 if you want a closed headphone).

some others like the way the A900, A1000 and W1000 re-produce acoustic guitar.

wouldn't using a too laid back headphone produce hot mixes, and hot headphones produce laid back mixes?


Whatever range the headphone emphasizes will be suppressed, and whatever the headphone suppresses will be emphasized. That's perhaps why some released recordings are so bad.
 
May 11, 2003 at 3:55 AM Post #18 of 34
Mike,

I always thought one mixes with headphones and checks the mix with monitor speakers. a VU meter pegging or in the red constantly is just a sign of a bad producer who would let someone get away with shoddy mixing.

if you use headphones with a rolled off high end, ie HD600 & DT880, wouldn't the resultant recording be bright? and using a DT831 which is bright (provided he matches it up to a warm to dark source), wouldn't it produce a recording which is high end dull? if he mixed with a K501 which is bass shy (?), wouldn't the mixes then be bass bloated.

if he mixed with a V6 it's bound to be screwed up, no matter what.
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now, if he EQ'd the headphones prior to streaming in the mix...
what he would then want would be power efficent (don't go into saturation easily) headphones, in which case we're talking HD600, CD3000 and DT880.
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they can take a LOT of power before becoming distorted.
 
May 11, 2003 at 4:07 AM Post #19 of 34
Originally posted by wallijonn
Mike,
1. I always thought one mixes with headphones and checks the mix with monitor speakers.

2. If you use headphones with a rolled off high end, iwouldn't the resultant recording be bright? and using a DT831 which is bright (provided he matches it up to a warm to dark source), wouldn't it produce a recording which is high end dull? if he mixed with a K501 which is bass shy (?), wouldn't the mixes then be bass bloated.

3. if he mixed with a V6 it's bound to be screwed up, no matter what.
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now, if he EQ'd the he1adphones prior to streaming in the mix...

1. One would hope, but the monitors themselves differ...

2. That's exactly what I said above..same true for bass

3. Unless they're EQ'd separately
 
May 11, 2003 at 5:42 AM Post #20 of 34
Quote:

Originally posted by arctan2000

Dr. Picker, when recording the classical guitar, how are you
able to keep the volume level low on your open headphone
and still be able to block the non-headphone sound
direct from the guitar? Is this pretty tricky? Open phones
seem like the better option for me.


I'm very familiar with my room and my gear. I've settled in on a sound (mic placement, position in room, etc.) by trial and error over time. I'm not relying on the phones to adjust my sound during recording. This allows me to keep the level of the open phones relatively low.

When I sit down to record, I want to hear a mix of direct guitar sound and the sound of the recording chain so I can adjust my touch and dynamics to suit the recording process. The open phones allow me to listen this way. Of course, I am also holding the guitar so I have a visceral connection to the sound of the instrument.

My objective in working this way is to create and manage a relationship between my guitar and the recording chain.

I hope this sheds some light on my choices. I can understand that others would make different choices in gear and setup depending on what they are trying to accomplish. For example, I might have to revise my approach if I were recording with other musicians in the room.

John
 
May 11, 2003 at 6:44 AM Post #22 of 34
Get the etys, they are the most neutral pair of phones available for up to twice its price
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May 11, 2003 at 8:32 AM Post #23 of 34
Maximum transparency in the range below $300...

Etymotic ER-4S
Beyerdynamic DT 880
Sennheiser HD 580/600

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May 11, 2003 at 12:17 PM Post #24 of 34
For mixing, I still would recommend monitor speakers rather than headphone, but if you are in remote location setup, or doing live recording, I would choose a close headphone set, sonys/sennheiser hd280s, or my current fave. Ultrasone HFI650 Trackmaster.
I've used that headphone to record an opera singer with a pianist, on an AEA R84 2" ribbon as a blumlein pair. I thought the phone sounded natural and compared to a 7506 (we had three pair of headphones for that session), the 7506 was presenting a more upfront sound, but for a 2 hour concert, I preferred the ultrasone.

They're under $200 available from mercenary.com or meier-audio.com

Moko
 
May 12, 2003 at 3:08 AM Post #25 of 34
I disagree about the "auto-compensation" statement. Once you get used to the headphones, and what they "do" to your mix, you can automatically compensate for them. Then, having a "hyped" pair of headphones like the Sony MDR-7506/-V6 just gives it to you louder, so that you can hear it without turning it up, like hiss, hum, thumps, cable movements, cable touching, etc.

You can mix however you want, but you should check your mix in as many different systems as possible (especially ones that are going to match your target systems).
 
May 12, 2003 at 6:04 AM Post #26 of 34
just as limitation and compression is used to record and mix, so also some headphones sound uncompressed and unlimited in their re-production. the three which immediately come to mind are the DT880, CD3000 and HD600. Each has their own failings for recording and mixing. But with such a headphone I can envision less compressed and less limited recordings.
 
May 12, 2003 at 3:10 PM Post #27 of 34
...
 
May 12, 2003 at 3:21 PM Post #28 of 34
Quote:

Originally posted by wallijonn
if you use headphones with a rolled off high end, ie HD600 & DT880...


wallijonn...

It's a mystery to me (I know we already had a similar discussion earlier) how the DT 880 can sound rolled-off to your ears...
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Below some headphone frequency response curves (from the German «Audio» magazine). I would say the DT 880 is the least rolled-off one and downright treble-friendly anyway.

attachment.php


Apart from that it's the most transparent dynamic headphone I know (Etys excluded).

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May 12, 2003 at 7:13 PM Post #29 of 34
Jazz,

it depends on your reference point. if you are coming from harsh Grados or the V6, the DT880 may be perceived as rolled off. If you are coming from K340s and K501s, the DT880 highs may be perceived as brighter.

Within the frequency response curve, there has to be a hole somewhere. The DT880 is very neutral and balanced. People who are used to a midrange brightness, a la Audio Technicas, may find the DT880s to be lifeless and un-involving.

The DT880 is a "polite" headphone, and therefore may not have the excitement of the Audio Technicas, Sonys and Grados. The overall high end energy of the DT880, provided that the portion that pleases you most (say like triangles, bells and high hats), if it exists within the range of the hole, may make the headphone sound rolled off.

I likened the high end as "tube like" sounding, nice and smooth. Many people like an exagerrated high end, "sizzle" if you must, and therefore to them it may sound rolled off.

it all depends on the type of music being recorded or re-produced. I maintain that the DT880 is very NON-fatiguing, having a very large dynamic range, and warn of massive SPLs being created if one turns up the volume searching for that "sizzle" and impact. I find high end harshness to be very fatiguing (although the DT831 is one of my most favourite headphones, even beyond my DT931s). I likened the highend of the DT880 being somewhere between the DT831 and the DT931. Many people see both of those headphones as being very bright, and therefore see the DT880 as bright. I do not, I see the overall 'quality' of the high end, regardless of the energy levels.

The overall sound quality of the midrange to highend is more balanced in the DT880. (IMO). Many people are not used to that balance. Which is why I maintain that its closest competitor is the HD600. The HD600 sounds rolled off to some people. To me, I perceive a 'veil', a flange. The DT880 does not exhibit that propensity. Its midrange is, according to Greg, sloping downward. This slope could be perceived as a roll off of energy. So people will crank up the volume to compensate and therefore increase the SPLs. Somewhere along the line the perception of midrange slope turns into perceived high end roll off. So they again crank up the volume, not noticing that their attention has shifted.

Even Beyer and Jan liken the DT880 to being in the Dt770 and Dt990 class. I maintain that they are in the DT831 and DT931 class. Chances are that it lies directly between both classes. Some say that the DT770 doesn't have a fast high end, while others say that it does. They point to component sources as being the culprit. I say that they are both right, just using different terms. To wit, the DT770 sounds, (to me), as being mid-bass bloated (especially in the lower vocal range. I say somewhere around 200 Hertz), and therefore the OVERALL quality of the sound tends to sound dark. To someone else, who just listens to the high end, and not the overall balance, the high end is perceived as being all there. The same problem exists in describing all headphones.

So while the OVERALL balance of the DT880 is "natural" and smooth and flowing, in COMPARISON to other headphones, which exaggerate some part of the frequency response curve (lower bass and upper highs in the Grados, upper mids in the Audio Technicas, and lower highs in the DT831), the DT880 may sound (at least to me it does) rolled off in the high end.

But if you listen to the DT880 for hours at a time, and then change over to any other headphone, you may find that it takes a LOT of getting used to. It's not the overall sound, but rather the lack of dynamics perceived, the relative sound levels between the instruments, and of the instruments, which causes immediate fatigue. Other headphones in comparison sound "compressed". Some people may therefore perceive the other headphone as being more lively, when in fact they are not.

Then there is the matter of soundstage. Make no mistake about it, the DT880 has a w-i-d-e soundstage. This wide soundstage again contributes to a false sense of lack of high end energy. Why? Because you hear each instrument more clearly. This lack of compression in a horizontal plane, gives the illusion of a lack of dynamics, of volume level. We expect the sound to be compressed within a 120 degree field. As it widens to about 180 degrees, the overall perception is one of a lack of volume. It is not. But the distance between the instruments, and the greater time to perceive sound bouncing from one end to another, or the merging of tones, seems stretched out. This again may be perceived as being rolled off, of being slightly smudge in imaging. It is really quite the opposite; it is imparting a space for the music to breathe. And in that space, the dynamic range is also greater, but this time in a horizontal plane.

And just as soundstage encompases the height and width and depth, so also you'll be able to hear "deeper" into a recording. It's that dynamic range again, that uncompressed feeling of giving "weight" to a performance. The the overall sound of the DT880 therefore sounds "more open" and "airey". This perceived blast of fresh aire, this unconstrained sense of sound, is opposite to the constricted sound of "busy" and "cramped" that most people are used to. It can therefore be perceived as being "rolled off".

With a judicious hand on the controlls, I feel that the resulting recording will sound fantastic on the DT880, but may sound lifeless on more forward, brighter, or exaggerated headphones. This lack of "life", or "impact," sensed on other headphones may necessitate the turning up of volume, and with it, the increase of distortion. With the increase of volume, the volume limiter threshold may be reached. And a high end roll off may be perceived.

Then again, it may sound too bright or too forward, if the mixer compensated to the point where he reached both the compression and volume limiter thresholds.

It all depneds on exactly what frequency (instrument) is being bought to the foreground.

I hope I have clarified my position, and hopefully you have a better understanding of what I am saying. It is just a difference of perception (linguistic symmantics).
 
May 12, 2003 at 7:32 PM Post #30 of 34
Jazz,

look at your SR125 and DT880 graphs at 3.15 KHz.

In the DT880 the difference between the 3.15 threshold and the 10 KHz threshold is about -10 dB RELATIVE to the +7 dB of the Grados. The DT880 goes UP, while the SR125 goes DOWN, "relatively" speaking. Are we then to assume that the Grados are rolled off? Of course not, just the opposite is true. Why? Because that is what our ears are telling us. And so, if just the opposite of what our ears are telling us is true, in regards to the SR125, then what the ears hear in regards to the DT880 should also be oppositely true. In this case, instead of a brightness, it could perceive a roll off in the DT880. (Overall, relatively speaking).

If you look at the SR125 gragh again, you could say that the high end is totally rolled off, being ~-22 dB at 20 KHz RELATIVE to the 3.15 KHz threshold.

Our hearing is therefore not the same (we can not detect the same volume levels) at different frequencies. We are most sensitive to the midrange level, which encompasses upper bass and lower treble. This perception of the RELATIVE levels between the two is what we perceive as balance, not the perceived difference in levels from the reference point of 0 dB.

And what range are we most sensitive to? Probably the 800 Hz to 5 KHz range. Any "hole" in this range, or any "exaggeration" in this range will tend to colour the OVERALL sound balance, and therefore the OVERALL sound "quality".

Relatively speaking, of course.
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