[vwinter]

Music, thanks for correcting

Vwinter, if we speak in core terms to my knowledge speakers or earphones cannot be analogue, sources can

Speakers and earphones are by definition analog, sources can be both analog, eg a record player, or digital, eg MacBook.

 

[lee730]

Quote:

Amusingly, so far, I think it's artificially "analog," which I mean to say life-like in this case. The depth is really no better than other very good ones and width is less than others I have heard and it's not as black as others, but what it does immensely is layering and height. the 3D effect comes from the imaging that uses the layers and the height. I've never heard layering even remotely close to this.

The word analogue has had the "use" trimmed in American usage and has come to be used in reference to electronics, ie, the opposite of digital.

 
Would you care to elaborate on this? What other IEMs have bested it in all these regards and what sources do you use to drive the 1Plus2?

 

[vwinter]

Sigh, you're looking at this as an attack and its not, not even remotely. It's just different apples. It was run through the D100 MKII DAC section > Quickstep (15V) > 1p2, et al.

I never said one thing. Nothing beats anything that is comparable at everything. The Heaven V (not comparable for the record) can throw things convincingly farther back, but its an entirely different presentation. The Flat4 goes wider, but again different presentation. So who cares. The PF Images decidedly in-head but reverbs way bigger. For the way my brain processes it, near field width is where it loses the most ground. I'll even draw a diagram when I get to it.

And I didn't even say better or bested, you're assuming that wider or deeper is better and that that was my implication, but you'd be assuming wrong. If it was wider, that might hurt something else, etc. It's great just the way it is.

 

[lee730]

Quote:

Sigh, you're looking at this as an attack and its not, not even remotely. It's just different apples. It was run through the D100 MKII DAC section > Quickstep (15V) > 1p2, et al.

I never said one thing. Nothing beats anything that is comparable at everything. The Heaven V (not comparable for the record) can throw things convincingly farther back, but its an entirely different presentation. The Flat4 goes wider, but again different presentation. So who cares. The PF Images decidedly in-head but reverbs way bigger. For the way my brain processes it, near field width is where it loses the most ground. I'll even draw a diagram when I get to it.

And I didn't even say better or bested, you're assuming that wider or deeper is better and that that was my implication, but you'd be assuming wrong. If it was wider, that might hurt something else, etc. It's great just the way it is.

I wasn't looking at it as an attack. I just wanted you to elaborate so I can see where you are coming from. We hear the Flat 4 differently then. I don't consider my pair to be wider in sound staging than the 1Plus2. The Flat 4s have more of an emphasis on head stage though yet still a rather large sound staging. But I can't honestly say pin-point like the 1Plus2. Where I would relate myself to the presentation. In that sense I feel the Flat 4 Sui can be more vast and ambient. Especially on particular tracks. What strikes me about the 1Plus2 is how well rounded overall the staging is. From width, depth, height it all makes for a 3D presentation. I haven't heard another IEM to date that has bested it in sound staging capabilities.

 

[vwinter]

I wasn't looking at it as an attack. I just wanted you to elaborate so I can see where you are coming from. We hear the Flat 4 differently then. I don't consider my pair to be wider in sound staging than the 1Plus2. The Flat 4s have more of an emphasis on head stage though yet still a rather large sound staging. But I can't honestly say pin-point like the 1Plus2. Where I would relate myself to the presentation. In that sense I feel the Flat 4 Sui can be more vast and ambient. Especially on particular tracks.

I'm not sure I understand your distinction between soundstage and headstage.

I wasn't talking about imaging if that's what you mean by pin point. That's a whole other ballgame lol.

It's a different sound between them no doubt. Neither can do what the other does IMO.

 

[lee730]

Quote:

I'm not sure I understand your distinction between soundstage and headstage.

I wasn't talking about imaging if that's what you mean by pin point. That's a whole other ballgame lol.

It's a different sound between them no doubt. Neither can do what the other does IMO.

When I refer to head stage its sound that is basically in your head. When I mention sound staging it is sound that images out of your head giving you a picture of things happening around you. The Flat 4 is more so based in the head. But gives a very large presentation for head staging. That's another reason why I mention not being able to really relate myself to the presentation. While the 1Plus2s sound projection is mostly of of head and with pin-point accuracy giving me an actual picture of myself relative to the presentation.

 

[eke2k6]

Quote:

When I refer to head stage its sound that is basically in your head. When I mention sound staging it is sound that images out of your head giving you a picture of things happening around you. The Flat 4 is more so based in the head. But gives a very large presentation for head staging. That's another reason why I mention not being able to really relate myself to the presentation. While the 1Plus2s sound projection is mostly of of head and with pin-point accuracy giving me an actual picture of myself relative to the presentation.

 
LOL, I'm about to have two concurrent discussions with you on two different threads, but...
 
The F4 sounds more out of head to me than the 1P2, and many other iems. at least in terms of forward projection. 
 
I still remember the first time I played Arlo Guthrie's "Alice's Restaurant Massacre" on the Flat-4. It was a live performance, and I could visualize the stage in front of me. It was a mind-blowing thing that I don't think I've heard before or since...maybe with the exception of the FAD Piano Forte. Most iems' interpretation of stage depth is to throw cues behind you in the centerstage, but the F4 is capable of going back, and more forward than most I've heard.
 
I can't say much for imaging, since that's not particularly something I listen out for. With the variations in mic placements for various studio and live performances, as well as how things like drum channels are mixed, who's to say what should be where other than the engineers themselves.

 

[music_4321]

Quote:

When I refer to head stage its sound that is basically in your head. When I mention sound staging it is sound that images out of your head giving you a picture of things happening around you. The Flat 4 is more so based in the head. But gives a very large presentation for head staging. That's another reason why I mention not being able to really relate myself to the presentation. While the 1Plus2s sound projection is mostly of of head and with pin-point accuracy giving me an actual picture of myself relative to the presentation.

 
The post below was written 4 weeks ago:
 
Quote:

Quote:

 
...With the [Flat4] Sui it's not so much the case as there is more ambiance. For me especially on particular tracks it's like I'm in a stadium in comparison and cannot imagine where I am in relation to the music. It's just very vast....

 
WOW!!

 

[lee730]

Quote:

 
The post below was written 4 weeks ago:
 

I don't see where you're going with this. As I said the Flat 4s I can't picture myself in relation to the presentation. The vastness/ambiance of it though I liken to being in a stadium (on particular tracks). But this presentation I'm referring to is in relation to the head staging. It's kinda like what Muppetface was referring to and inner sound staging.

 

[music_4321]

Quote:

I don't see where you're going with this. As I said the Flat 4s I can't picture myself in relation to the presentation. The vastness/ambiance of it though I liken to being in a stadium (on particular tracks). But this presentation I'm referring to is in relation to the head staging. It's kinda like what Muppetface was referring to and inner sound staging.

 
Please elaborate on MuppetFace's "and inner sound staging".
 
You, amongst many other things—many criticisms you've made of the K3003s for far too long—, claimed the K3003s have "grainy treble"—the only person ever to make such a claim. Yet several quite experienced head-fiers have stated that one thing the K3003s have is a very, very clean treble, with someone—very experienced—going as far as saying it was too clean!
 
Forgive me if I take several / many of your claims and opinions with a pinch of salt. Good to see you no longer speak about gear you have never tried, like you used to do not that long ago.

 

[eke2k6]

Quote:

I don't see where you're going with this. As I said the Flat 4s I can't picture myself in relation to the presentation. The vastness/ambiance of it though I liken to being in a stadium (on particular tracks). But this presentation I'm referring to is in relation to the head staging. It's kinda like what Muppetface was referring to and inner sound staging.

 
I think you were experiencing the forward projection I was mentioning earlier. You can't imagine yourself in the presentation because you're still trying to orient yourself inside the performance. The F4 allowed me to be an observer, like if I was watching a band playing instead of hearing the instruments only to my left or right.

 

[lee730]

Quote:

 
I think you were experiencing the forward projection I was mentioning earlier. You can't imagine yourself in the presentation because you're still trying to orient yourself inside the performance. The F4 allowed me to be an observer, like if I was watching a band playing instead of hearing the instruments only to my left or right.

Well in a sense eke. But when I was referring to the stadium-like ambiance and vastness. It was as if I was floating in the presentation observing as you said. But it's not the same presentation like the 1Plus2 where I have pin-point accuracy of each instrument and can tell exactly where things are happening as if I was there sitting down in the crowd. It's hard to explain. Let just say when you say forward projection as in the presentation being in front of me. I feel the 1Plus2 showcases this and not so much the Flat 4 Suis. What I hear is an expansive inner sound staging that goes from left to right on the Sui. The presentation does extend somewhat out of my head as well but not like that of the 1Plus2. Seems the Flat 4 is a very polarizing IEM at that lol . Doesn't mean I don't like the Flat 4 Sui. I actually use them a lot, even over the 1Plus2.

 

[maguire]

Sorry to go off topic, but why cant you get this in a custom?  For me personally it takes quite a bit of fiddling around to get that proper seal......
Then once put in I can easily loose the seal & whole procedure starts over again... Tedious stuff when you just want to enjoy the quality these things are quite capable of bringing one.
 
Another thing who can make a custom? will they do as good a job? meaning will sound change?

 

[lee730]

Quote:

Sorry to go off topic, but why cant you get this in a custom?  For me personally it takes quite a bit of fiddling around to get that proper seal......
Then once put in I can easily loose the seal & whole procedure starts over again... Tedious stuff when you just want to enjoy the quality these things are quite capable of bringing one.
 
Another thing who can make a custom? will they do as good a job? meaning will sound change?

 
Maguire I've talked with Gavin about this in the past and he stated they cannot replicate the exact same sound of their universal consistently as they are dealing with a dynamic and BA driver with cross overs as well as specific tuning. That includes the shell size, shape of the sound chamber, dampening material, etc. The biggest point he hi-lighted was the coherency.
 
I suggest you try out various tips before giving up. I had issues initially with the IE8s until I found the appropriate tips. After that achieving and maintaining a proper seal wasn't an issue. Did you order the tips I linked you to earlier? They may get to you before you pass the IEMs along. It took them about a week to get to me by mail from the UK. Personally universals are more convenient and I can use them while on the go as well as at home. With customs it's specifically relegated for home usage. The lack of isolation of a universal is ideal for me when out in public. Better to be aware of ones surroundings. But while cleaning and cooking I did prefer my CIEM as I'd never lose the seal by moving around a lot.

 

[maguire]

Oh I see, thanks for clearing that up. I will order the tips then, hopefully they will come in time.