TOTL disappointments
Apr 24, 2023 at 4:00 PM Post #601 of 970
Personally I think both improved over time, but quality certainly don't scale linearly with price (or at all)

This exactly. Headphone technology has certainly improved, and technical performance has improved quite considerably. I do acknowledge that tonality still largely goes to the older, vintage headphones imo, but otherwise there's been a lot of improvement. Just absolutely not linearly when factoring in price, for sure. (which will always be the case, but do admit the price hikes have been absurd imo in recent years)
 
Apr 24, 2023 at 5:08 PM Post #602 of 970
May well be. It was hooked up to the amp designed for it. The short demo was definitely not a full-fledged experience.

Oof, yah. The shang amp is rough as hell tbh. I realy don't know why hifiman insists on making amps.when they honestly just aren't good at it
 
Apr 24, 2023 at 5:10 PM Post #603 of 970
50 years ago every manufacturer/designer at least attempted a flat response output. Now they (including reviewers) don’t even have a point of reference and probably wouldn’t know what an even response was if it bit them in the ass. “Hey if the measurement target says this is flat, let’s shoot for that”. Like they lopped their ears off the sides of their heads and went with graphs exclusively.

..... Have you read a review from the past 10 years? Idk how you've never heard of Harman tbh
 
Apr 24, 2023 at 5:18 PM Post #604 of 970
This exactly. Headphone technology has certainly improved, and technical performance has improved quite considerably. I do acknowledge that tonality still largely goes to the older, vintage headphones imo, but otherwise there's been a lot of improvement. Just absolutely not linearly when factoring in price, for sure. (which will always be the case, but do admit the price hikes have been absurd imo in recent years)

The essential problem is that technical improvement does not necessarily translate into better enjoyment of music. This goes back a long way (I'm going to pick on Sennheiser because they should have known better). The HD-650 was a technical improvement in terms of speed and detailing over the HD-600. The HD-650 became one of the de facto reference points that almost everyone was able to relate to. OTOH, it could never achieve the tonality of the HD-600. To this day, I would listen to the HD-600 over the HD-650. The technical milestones of the HD-800 are well known, and it also became a de facto standard. However, for listening to music, IMO it's bottom of the barrel. A toy to be used to show what headphones can do, but not a device for serious music listening. I have not heard later iterations to see if the flaws have been corrected somewhere along the line.

To this day, the Sennheiser HE90 from 1989 or so with a good amp powering it sounds better than 99% of new headphones that I've heard. The big rush of planars that has hit us in recent years may well be an attempt to approach what a top electrostatic headphone can do without the need for a top electrostatic amplifier. Where I've heard big advances is in the $400 to $1200 price range. This appear to me to be where technical advancements in recent years have pushed sound a lot. Fostex and Focal dynamic headphones, Oppo and Quad planars all punch above their weight (although Oppo is out of out of the game and I don't know about Quad). I have yet to meet a mainstream planar that I love, and my ears are getting old enough that I'm not sure it's worth the effort to keep trying.
 
Apr 24, 2023 at 5:39 PM Post #605 of 970
The essential problem is that technical improvement does not necessarily translate into better enjoyment of music. This goes back a long way (I'm going to pick on Sennheiser because they should have known better). The HD-650 was a technical improvement in terms of speed and detailing over the HD-600. The HD-650 became one of the de facto reference points that almost everyone was able to relate to. OTOH, it could never achieve the tonality of the HD-600. To this day, I would listen to the HD-600 over the HD-650. The technical milestones of the HD-800 are well known, and it also became a de facto standard. However, for listening to music, IMO it's bottom of the barrel. A toy to be used to show what headphones can do, but not a device for serious music listening. I have not heard later iterations to see if the flaws have been corrected somewhere along the line.

To this day, the Sennheiser HE90 from 1989 or so with a good amp powering it sounds better than 99% of new headphones that I've heard. The big rush of planars that has hit us in recent years may well be an attempt to approach what a top electrostatic headphone can do without the need for a top electrostatic amplifier. Where I've heard big advances is in the $400 to $1200 price range. This appear to me to be where technical advancements in recent years have pushed sound a lot. Fostex and Focal dynamic headphones, Oppo and Quad planars all punch above their weight (although Oppo is out of out of the game and I don't know about Quad). I have yet to meet a mainstream planar that I love, and my ears are getting old enough that I'm not sure it's worth the effort to keep trying.

Well yea for sure that's case for some users and is a personal preference. But to say no technical improvements have been made simply isn't true. That's all I was arguing against.

I have the HE90 and it does sound better than many other headphones old or new again mainly because of how balanced the tonality is. Same with the R10. Yet I wouldn't want either to be my *only* headphone, as I'd missed the increased resolution, spacing and layering some of the new TOTLs offer. I would want something like an x9000, Sr1a, TC, Sus etc. alongside it. But I get someone preferring the OG TOTLs better for sure.
 
Apr 25, 2023 at 2:52 PM Post #606 of 970
Pricing headphones in the ToTL is mainly about marketing and consumer perception. Years ago Fang of Hifiman said an expensive headphone was priced that way "because it sounds good" and everyone made fun of him. But, he was pulling back the curtain and telling you the truth. If a headphone sounds better (or is marketed as sounding better) than everything else in the line, it will be the most expensive almost always.
 
Apr 25, 2023 at 2:56 PM Post #607 of 970
Well yea for sure that's case for some users and is a personal preference. But to say no technical improvements have been made simply isn't true. That's all I was arguing against.

Fully agree. There have been huge advances in material science and in manufacturing (3D printing, CNC, etc) that have changed headphone development and production. The way Audeze makes their films (in house!) would not have been possible not that long ago. And DCA's use of metamaterials is based on hardcore scientific research that occured after 2000. There are many other examples....
 
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Apr 25, 2023 at 4:24 PM Post #608 of 970
The essential problem is that technical improvement does not necessarily translate into better enjoyment of music. This goes back a long way (I'm going to pick on Sennheiser because they should have known better). The HD-650 was a technical improvement in terms of speed and detailing over the HD-600. The HD-650 became one of the de facto reference points that almost everyone was able to relate to. OTOH, it could never achieve the tonality of the HD-600. To this day, I would listen to the HD-600 over the HD-650. The technical milestones of the HD-800 are well known, and it also became a de facto standard. However, for listening to music, IMO it's bottom of the barrel. A toy to be used to show what headphones can do, but not a device for serious music listening. I have not heard later iterations to see if the flaws have been corrected somewhere along the line.

To this day, the Sennheiser HE90 from 1989 or so with a good amp powering it sounds better than 99% of new headphones that I've heard. The big rush of planars that has hit us in recent years may well be an attempt to approach what a top electrostatic headphone can do without the need for a top electrostatic amplifier. Where I've heard big advances is in the $400 to $1200 price range. This appear to me to be where technical advancements in recent years have pushed sound a lot. Fostex and Focal dynamic headphones, Oppo and Quad planars all punch above their weight (although Oppo is out of out of the game and I don't know about Quad). I have yet to meet a mainstream planar that I love, and my ears are getting old enough that I'm not sure it's worth the effort to keep trying.
Excellent points, all. Especially your opening sentence.

Nice to see you back.
 
Apr 26, 2023 at 2:30 PM Post #609 of 970
HD600 and HD650 are still untouchable, cheap, and perfect headphones for everyone.

I believe it is a "legendary" statement that really famous here in head-fi. A misleading statement indeed. Perfect for some, useless for some others.

Audio, just like everything else that use our sense to enjoy, will always fall to subjective preference no matter what. If your statement is true then I would never sold my HD650 and HD600 ever (been re-buy and re-sell them multiple time though, but gave up at around 2016, never bought them again).
 
Apr 26, 2023 at 2:33 PM Post #610 of 970
I believe it is a "legendary" statement that really famous here in head-fi. A misleading statement indeed. Perfect for some, useless for some others.

Audio, just like everything else that use our sense to enjoy, will always fall to subjective preference no matter what. If your statement is true then I would never sold my HD650 and HD600 ever (been re-buy and re-sell them multiple time though, but gave up at around 2016, never bought them again).
No headphone is perfect and untouchable, not even the Sennheiser HE1.

The HD600 and 650 are certainly good for the price, but also have their own weaknesses

As you said, all a matter of personal taste
 
Apr 26, 2023 at 3:22 PM Post #611 of 970
will always fall to subjective preference no matter what.
Fear of missing out.

This lead someone to believe that their previous purchase is no longer desirable or valuable because a newer, trendier item has captured their attention and the attention of their peers and because of this, a bandwagon effect takes place and individuals lose their sense of understanding of what made the original item great.
 
Apr 26, 2023 at 3:37 PM Post #612 of 970
Fear of missing out.

This lead someone to believe that their previous purchase is no longer desirable or valuable because a newer, trendier item has captured their attention and the attention of their peers and because of this, a bandwagon effect takes place and individuals lose their sense of understanding of what made the original item great.

Very understandable point. It happens a lot these days.

Btw, speaking of HD600/HD650, it's like we talk about how great Mercedes C-Class back in year 2003 when compared to every other cars at similar price range. Invalid statement for now indeed. As C-Class and HD600/HD650 had changed design and performance multiple times through the years (while name remain the same). Also, the competitors in market also changed dramatically.
 
Apr 26, 2023 at 4:02 PM Post #613 of 970
Personally, I'm not disappointed by my HD-6xx. I honestly think it's a great value (I paid $200 back in the 3rd 'drop').

Sure it's not my HEKse, or Atrium, or ...

It's plastic,, not super-comfortable, can sound veiled, and doesn't produce bass the way my other cans do, but ...

... at one tenth the price of my best cans (or less) it's 85 - 90% when driven by the 'right' system -- really likes my BHC/Speedball fed from mTT2.

It's also pretty much the only set I'm willing to travel with: losing a $200 set (through theft, accident, misplaced luggage, etc) is a lot more palatable than losing a $2.5k set.

It's sort of amusing. I originally purchased the 6xx because so many reviews compared XYZ headphone to HD-650/HD-6XX and wasn't that impressed. Driven by good SS amps (Violectric V280, Bryston BHA-1) they DID NOT impress me -- stuck in the they don't do anything TOO poorly hole.

But as soon as I plugged them into my Liquid Platinum, I found them much more interesting, and I really like them from the BHC chain mentioned above. I've actually been toying with setting up system-wide eq for them to see how good they can move.

I've been playing with some mods for them as well. And in my mind, that means they are worth improving, as opposed to other cans which I have tried and dismissed.
 
Apr 26, 2023 at 4:24 PM Post #615 of 970
HE6se V2 are amazing headphones. I can't count the number of times I've been blown away while listening to them. Especially considering their price tag. I regret selling them. I had a flawless piece. :thinking:
Seems easy enough to rebuy for $400 during Black Friday sale.
 

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