[bmichels]

  Romaz,

That was quite the impression, it was very very helpful.

One thing im quite curious about is, why not go for the d-twelve since those have about 50% more resistors compared to the monoblocks and its only 25% more in terms of price. This is assuming vincent is still ok with you trading it in for a better one.

 

Simple: the 12 cannot drive headphone direct 

 

[prot]

CAT vs TotalDAC d1-Server

I do not take the statement of the CAT being superior to the TotalDac server lightly because the TotalDac server is excellent.  If I was forced to live with the TotalDac server, none of you should feel sorry for me because this server thus far is the second or third best music server I have heard (the Aurender N10/W20 is somewhere in this mix).  The CAT does not include a separate reclocker in the same way that the TotalDac server does but unlike the TotalDac server, it does have incorporated in the chassis 2 high precision clocks (explained in further detail below) that then feed the USB port a very clean and well timed signal.  As you know, using the CAT as the source, the TotalDac reclocker seemed to result in only a subtle improvement.  Since the USB Regen seemed to have no noticeable effect on the CAT at all, my suspicion is the improvement heard with the TotalDac reclocker has less to do with jitter control and more to do with converting the USB signal to AES/EBU making this a TotalDac issue and not a CAT issue.  As has been mentioned by Vincent, this is the port the TotalDac prefers.

As for statements about performance vs value, my statements of preference were regards to performance only.  When talking about value, I have to answer this question carefully because there are many variables that have to be considered when you talk about the value of a server for most people.  There are some who prefer not to use a NAS and believe that internal storage is superior when it comes to SQ and convenience.  There are some who prefer the familiarity and compatibility of a well known OS like Windows or IOS and others who prefer the open source flavors that Linux provides.  There are many who would prefer not to deal with OS issues at all and would be happiest to have an easy to use and reliable user interface, preferably on a tablet.  Further to that, there are those of us like @bmichels
 that insist on having ROON capability.  Once you know what you must have, it becomes easier to make a decision.

With regards to price, if you owned only a d1-dual, you would have to pay nearly 5,000 Euros for a d1-server which as you know, has a reclocker built in.  If you are interested in a d1-monobloc, the reclocker is an included part of this package and to add the server adds only about 1,000 Euros and so for the monobloc, getting the server is a no brainer.  There are some creative souls out there who own a TotalDac DAC and have purchased a Cubox computer for about $100 USD and are connecting these little devices to the TotalDac via USB and are claiming excellent SQ.  This may present the ultimate value if you already own a TotalDac DAC and are considering the Server.  

While I hope most people recognize that I regard the TotalDac server extremely highly with regards to SQ, there are issues with it that are less than ideal.  Most importantly is the software.  While it works well, MPAD is 2nd rate.  It's last update took place in early 2014 and it has bugs.  Also, to listen to Tidal or Qobuz, you have to switch to iPeng which is 3rd rate and clearly sounds inferior to MPAD and so if much of your listening is through these streaming services, you take a SQ hit.  When using Tidal or Qobuz on iPeng, the feature set is very primitive.  It's really hard to discover new music this way.  Basically, with any Linux-based system, you seem to get the latest stuff last and what you do get isn't very polished.  The way I see it, the TotalDac Server is a 1st rate server with 3rd rate software.  While it excels in sound quality, it does not excel in overall user experience and so you will have to decide for yourselves what value this holds.

With the CAT, you pay more but you get more.  In most cases, the price for the CAT will be nearly double but what you get is an attractive looking chassis that can be left on 24/7 and consumes less than 20 watts.  It also runs extremely cool to the touch and so for a full PC that runs Windows 8.1, you know the hardware is very light.  The OS has been optimized through 3 years of tweaking and only runs 30+ active processes.  To keep it running efficiently, the default configuration is locked although there are ways to unlock it if that is what you wish.  There is no firewall, no antivirus, no Windows updates as this is discouraged and considered unnecessary for a music server.  While you can use it like a standard PC, you really wouldn't want to because that defeats its singular purpose and that is to present music with the highest quality possible.  Before you laugh at the choice of Windows 8.1, in many ways this was a very smart choice because of Windows' robust networking capabilities and very broad compatibility.  Software also tends to get released first for Windows and while we are still waiting for ROON for Linux, the CAT can be configured to boot directly to ROON now which you can then operate remotely using either an iPad, Android tablet, smartphone, PC or MAC.  Because it is a standard PC, it will run all software that Windows can run including Spotify, YouTube, Rhapsody, Sonos, etc, and hopefully MQA when it is released.  This is probably as future proof as you will get.  The best thing is that all of this can be controlled via remote desktop software so you can keep the CAT on your rack without having to connect it to a monitor or keyboard and you can control it from any other PC or Mac or even a tablet.  Because the OS has been optimized for stability, it is designed not to crash like most PCs.  Thus far, it has been 100 percent stable.

Unlike the TotalDac Server, the price comes with internal storage which presently maxes out at 4TB of internal SSDs although the CAT can utilize a NAS if necessary.  Before you start thinking you can build this machine on your own, you can't.  The SSDs are not off the shelf SSDs you can buy, they are custom built for the CAT with proprietary specs geared for music listening.  The SSDs are individually encased/shielded and carefully mounted to guard against resonances.  The wiring (both data and power) is hand made with careful attention to keeping lengths to a minimum.  Much testing was done with different metals before deciding on what type of wiring sounded best.  The motherboard is heavily modified with a customized bios that took years to tweak.  The motherboard uses 2 oscillators/clocks that receive a highly filtered DC voltage from an outboard linear power supply.  There are no motherboard switch mode regulators between the oscillators and external power supply.  There is also additional filtering applied as close as physically possible to both oscillators.  His USB ports are of his own design and are fed by a dedicated rail from his external linear PSU.  The unused ports on the CAT have been deactivated.  What Scott has found to be one of the biggest issues in digital audio is high frequency noise that results in digital harshness and so he has spent 4 years trying to eliminate or minimize it using a variety of methods and technologies that he did not feel he could share with me.  Unlike many components that are over-engineered for no real reason, the CAT is precisely engineered because the difference is there.

The CAT took 4 years to develop and when you focus 4 years of attention to a single product and you have the attention to detail that Scott has, then what you end up with is something pretty special.  To give you an example, Scott reportedly tested more than 30 fuses before deciding on which fuse sounded best on the CAT.  Who does that?  Even recently, he has been experimenting with different materials for cabling and recently upgraded the DC cables to his external PSU when he realized the SQ difference was there.  He sells a USB cable that recently was granted a patent for its differential filtering capabilities.  What these efforts amount to is what I have now experienced first hand -- the best digital source I have heard. Sometimes, you do get what you pay for. 

That stuff probably makes very good sense if you do not have a tech background. May also make pretty good sense for an electrical or even audio engineer. However, if you ask a computer expert you may not like the answer .
Dont wanna spoil the totaldac fun here so wont go into any details. If you want to know some, send me a PM. And if you insist on buying that kind of pc, better ones cost less than half of that "amazing" (copy)CAT.

 

[Beolab]

Hard to say.  Some here really like the Hugo and TT and I am among that group although I do not feel either are near the level of even the TotalDac d1-single in terms of richness of tone.  As Chord's statement DAC, I expect the DAVE to be much better but I suspect it will still have the Chord house sound and so it will come down to personal preference.  To me, the TotalDac house sound is deep rich tone.  Very vivid (but not artificial) color contrasts against a very black background.  The monoblocs do everything the dual does well but to a greater extent.  The key separator, however, is a greater sense of dimensional space.  With that said, I very much want to hear the DAVE.  I especially like the look of the polished sterling model that I saw in a photo.

The nice thing is that you just need one compact case that contains it all, you do not have the option or in need of any external power base,
re-clocker, or anthing like it, and i like simplicity.

But as you saying the DAVE will probably have the Chord house sound , but whe can wish its richer than the TT and have a more TotalDAC Dual signature to the sound instead of the harsh neutral Hugo sound signature.

 

[romaz]

  Romaz,

That was quite the impression, it was very very helpful.

One thing im quite curious about is, why not go for the d-twelve since those have about 50% more resistors compared to the monoblocks and its only 25% more in terms of price. This is assuming vincent is still ok with you trading it in for a better one.

 

This is a natural question to ask and I did ask because once you go to the level of the monobloc, the twelve is not much more money.  The problem with the twelve, which is both blessing and curse, is that the noise floor and impedance are so low that an output stage was not necessary and so Vincent did away with it.  Consequently, it cannot drive headphones directly like the dual or monobloc can which for me is a deal breaker.  For direct-to-headphone use, the monobloc is as good as you can get with TotalDac.  

 

[romaz]

 

I don't disagree with you.  I think we're all looking for the magic product that can do it all for less but unless you've heard a product and have had a chance to compare it, it makes no sense to make judgement statements because the proof is in the listening.  Show me something that sounds better for less and I would be happy to buy it but the problem with a lot of DIY stuff is they're not user friendly and often not very attractive or reliable.  Most DIYers also don't take into account user experience.  Having built a few dozen PCs since the days of DOS, I've experienced my share of headaches and have learned to be tolerant of them but I simply don't want to deal with such issues when I'm listening to music.  As for "copy Cat", all computers are copy cats, unless of course you have an ENIAC that was built in 1946.

 

[romaz]

The nice thing is that you just need one compact case that contains it all, you do not have the option or in need of any external power base,
re-clocker, or anthing like it, and i like simplicity.
 

This is definitely the appeal of the DAVE for me.

 

[bmichels]

  This is definitely the appeal of the DAVE for me.

yes.  Simplicity is a good positive point for DAVE.  But... is DAVE at the TotalDAC sonic level ?

 

[preproman]

  This is a natural question to ask and I did ask because once you go to the level of the monobloc, the twelve is not much more money.  The problem with the twelve, which is both blessing and curse, is that the noise floor and impedance are so low that an output stage was not necessary and so Vincent did away with it.  Consequently, it cannot drive headphones directly like the dual or monobloc can which for me is a deal breaker.  For direct-to-headphone use, the monobloc is as good as you can get with TotalDac.  

Why is it a deal breaker if the Studio is still in the works? 

 

[nepherte]

  I don't completely agree. Clocking it properly at the beginning of the chain is better than having to reclock it later in the chain.

 
I kind of misused the term reclocker here I suppose. I agree with the sentiment of doing it properly at the source rather than attempting to fix it afterwards.

 

[nepherte]

   
MPD is more 2nd rate while iPeng is 3rd rate.

 
I respectfully disagree with respect to MPD I should probably say rightaway that I only use MPD to play music directly from hard disk straight to the audio hardware device (exclusive mode). I don't use Tidal or other streaming services. I'm also not aware of support for that within MPD. I could not discern any sonic difference between my Windows 10 running Roon versus Arch Linux running MPD, with the caveat of not being able to do a direct comparison because it's the same computer. Whether any difference is discernible if you try it on a d1-server or CAT, I have no idea.
 
I can somewhat agree that MPD and its clients could come across as not user friendly. Then again, I find the command-line client npmcpp the summum of usability, so I may not be your average user.

 

[nepherte]

That stuff probably makes very good sense if you do not have a tech background. May also make pretty good sense for an electrical or even audio engineer. However, if you ask a computer expert you may not like the answer

.

 
I have yet to hear the CAT, d1-server and consorts, so I remain sceptical as well (being both an electrical engineer and a computer scientist).  And I still believe that is the right attitude the approach these matters. Who is right? I have no idea. The truth might be somewhere in between the 2 domains. but as Romaz says, in the end it all boils down to what we (believe to) hear.
 
PS And it is much appreciated that you show no desire to derail this thread. Further discussion can be taken to PM (although I have not much else to say on these matters, I am happy to listen to your take on this)

 

[prot]

I don't disagree with you.  I think we're all looking for the magic product that can do it all for less but unless you've heard a product and have had a chance to compare it, it makes no sense to make judgement statements because the proof is in the listening.  Show me something that sounds better for less and I would be happy to buy it but the problem with a lot of DIY stuff is they're not user friendly and often not very attractive or reliable.  Most DIYers also don't take into account user experience.  Having built a few dozen PCs since the days of DOS, I've experienced my share of headaches and have learned to be tolerant of them but I simply don't want to deal with such issues when I'm listening to music.  As for "copy Cat", all computers are copy cats, unless of course you have an ENIAC that was built in 1946.

Everything builds on something else. But in this case copycat means exactly that (also not a good one).

One thing I find kinda funny: noone will go to a dermatologist for teeth treatment .. however, a PC/OS configured by an audioengineer seems to be quite the rage
Anyway, you seem happy with that stuff so I'll let you go on with the interesting experiments.

nepherte
for details you know my pm number

 

[Rotijon]

 
Why is it a deal breaker if the Studio is still in the works? 

Thats the one romaz, arent you in the studio queue?

Why is there a sudden inclination here towards directly connecting headphones to the dac instead of adding an amp? 

 

[romaz]

One thing I find kinda funny: noone will go to a dermatologist for teeth treatment .. however, a PC/OS configured by an audioengineer seems to be quite the rage

 

 
Interesting perspective.  It sounds like you have a personal problem with Scott so I will leave that one alone.  To my knowledge, the CAT has not violated any patents and is competing in this market legitimately.  I have tried to evaluate the CAT or any other piece of equipment I am looking at on its own merit, irrespective of whether its creator is a programmer, IT specialist, audio engineer or just tinkerer but at their core, to succeed, I believe they have to be a music lover who views himself as more of an instrument maker than a computer specialist.  I do find it helpful to know what I can about the company behind a product, to make sure they'll be around for a while and are responsive and easy to deal with.  Ultimately, I run from arrogance, from people who trash the products of others for their own personal gain.  If you have a good product, then you have a good product and so let it speak for itself.  If you have something for me to try, I will try it and I will judge it fairly.

 

[romaz]

 
Why is it a deal breaker if the Studio is still in the works? 

Good question, Darryl.  Like you, I have owned quite a bit of head-fi gear over the years although I have sold most of my gear and am close to starting from scratch.  The only thing I know for sure is that I will be staying with my HE-1000.  After that, what my audio chain will look like is anyone's guess.  You are fortunate because you have already found your end game DAC and hopefully your end game amp once your BHSE arrives.  I remain on my journey of discovery having earnestly evaluated a lot of gear this past year, as you know, and while the journey has been enjoyable and has provided me a wealth of perspective, I am more than ready to be settled.  
 
What I have learned thus far is this.  The TotalDac is the finest DAC and the EC Studio is the finest non-electrostatic amp I have experienced thus far.  The Studio will also serve as an excellent tube amp for my high efficiency speakers.  Having experienced the benefits of this direct-to-headphone experience with my Bricasti and with your TotalDac d1-dual, I knew there was something to this and yet I wasn't convinced it could completely replace a headphone amp, especially an amp as good as the Studio.  I believed that if there was a DAC that could, it would be something like the monobloc.  When I first began looking at the monobloc seriously a few months ago, I knew the only way I could justify it was to have it serve as both DAC and headphone amp and so if I ended up with the monobloc, I knew it had to be so damn good that I could then give up the Studio.  During this time, I investigated the d1-twelve also but immediately crossed it off my list when Vincent told me it was incapable of driving a headphone directly and so yes, this was a deal breaker.
 
While I feel fortunate to have assembled the gear that I currently have for evaluation, I want to emphasize that I presently own none of it and am not obligated to any of it.  While the combination of TotalDac monobloc + CAT + Entreq Poseidon + DHC cable + HE1000 is easily the best sound I have heard, I struggle to justify its price tag and so nothing has been decided. At the end of all of this, I may end up with both a d1-dual + EC Studio but I will tell you the monobloc is becoming harder and harder to resist.  Also, as good as the CAT is, I refuse to count the Aurender N10 out and it will get a fair shake once it arrives tomorrow.  There is also the remote chance that a Nagra HD DAC evaluation unit will arrive soon as this has been promised to me by the U.S. distributor.  As it has been too long, I am trying to get back to southern California soon to listen to the Studio again to see if the magic is still there.  How this all ends, I don't know yet but it will end soon.