Toranku's Thoughts and Reviews (and target EQ filters!)

[hiflofi]

Yep, I concur with the sentiments expressed above there. This thread has been enormously helpful. Thank you so much for your time and effort to record your thoughts so carefully and sharing them here. I feel like I can trust your comments a lot more than some reviews where the only criticism is the choice of latches on the carrying case.

After several years away from HeadFi and gleefully listening to speakers almost exclusively, a new job with an open office and extended commute pulled me back into the Game of Phones. I have spent the past several months haunting e-earphone and Yodobashi Camera. This thread and the Ranking List have really helped target some great earphones.

Just a few side notes to contribute…

1. My experience with the Solaris was similar to yours. I thought I was going to be quickly done with this process when I tried the demo model at e-earphone early on in the hunt. I purchased a second-hand pair, but my experience at home was a bit different than at the store. There was so much to like but the bass extension seemed lacking and some peaky brightness made move on from them. I always feel like I have to live with a pair of phones before I can really get a feel for them, but treble peaks in a demo usually get me to go to another model. I am wondering if there are indeed some sample differences or if my brain just settled in and didn’t care for the final result.

2. The JVC HW10000 don’t move me either. The imaging and sound stage are fantastic and they definitely caught my attention as something special when I first tried them. But the more time I spent time with them, the more I noticed an uneven treble response, an underwhelming bass, and the more they just sounded mid-tier. They do have some serious fans though. As always, YMMV.

3. Boy oh boy, qdc has a superb line-up. I would not really have paid attention to them without this thread and I am so glad I did. I am concerned I will have to deal with the forwardness of the treble in the long run, but the VX were absolutely mesmerizing and I now am waiting on a pair I bought from eBay.

I am hoping to settle on just one pair in the end, but man, I feel like a Berenstain bear trying to buy a new hat. (Spoiler Alert) He is at least able to walk out happily with his old hat. I was content with the Dorados or 335DWs for the odd occasion I wanted to listen to earphones, but now I have heard so many amazing individual aspects that I feel like I can’t settle until I find that unicorn pair that includes them all. Le sigh.



I hope this wasn’t a thread highjack. It all seemed to fit. Again, thank you for all the great work. I do hope you can keep it up!

Any comments on the VX's staging? I've read the Gemini's stage is its weakness (relatively).

Also, did you find the VX's bass to actually be better than the Solaris' bass despite the difference in implementation (BA vs DD respectively)?

If the VX's stage is indeed wider, and the bass is indeed comparable to DDs, it might just be my next all-BA step up.

 

[Ocelitgol]

Revisited: Sony IER-M9

The M9 is quite a uniquely tuned, laidback IEM. The way it presents things is quite different from a typical in ear. Sound signature wise the M9 has a boosted, warm bass that isnt too intense coupled with well extended yet not fatiguing highs. Mids take a step back positionally which creates a soundstage with depth and width. Tonally the iems leans towards a pleasant, warm sound with treble extension. I put emphasis on treble extension because it has a good bit of it, yet not fatiguing for me at all. I think most people would like a more forward sounding midrange but the M9 just isn't that. It's very balanced sounding. Yet the midrange is not supressed or anything - it just takes on a warm tone with a bit of body. Presentation wise the entire sound sits further away from you, rendering detailed high frequency instruments like hihats and cymbals. Yet these instruments are not fatiguing.

The boosted, warm bass has good rumble but does not overdo it. My only qualm with the bass is that it can be timbre-ly slower than the mids and highs. BAs tend to decay quickly but the woofers in M9 decay slower. Does feel like the mids and highs decay faster which creates a slight incoherency. The best part of the M9 is it's presentation combined with its imaging and separation. Instruments have an extreme pinpoint accuracy positionally in the track. Attack is decent - not too blunted despite the warmth. The distance from instrument to instrument can be quite staggering sometimes combined with its precise positional cues. However as said, M9 is laidback and presents things in such a way that the stage is far away from you. You hear all the details and extension on both ends. Exactly where the instruments are. It has not much of a "wow factor" when I tried it a few times prior to its release. The wow factor really hit me only after giving it time to understand how it presented things. Just. so. detailed.

Not trying to generate hype or anything, but it goes to show that biases and presumptions can affect the enjoyability of an iem. My first impressions with M9 was that it was dry and boring albeit detailed. People around my community where hyping it up like mad...until the Z1R dropped. Didn't believe in the hype. I understand it now - it is really more of a tool to hear recordings properly. Frankly still quite blown away as to how it positioned vocals and instruments.

@toranku i know this is an old post but can you tell me which tips did you use to demo? thank you

 

[toranku]

This is probably the best, most informative IEM impressions thread I have read anywhere on the Internet. You have a great taste in tuning, a high expectation for everything that goes into your ears, and you know exactly how FR relates to SQ. (e.g. you pointed out the honkiness you heard in PP8 was due to excessive 1-2k. Extremely on point!)

I am so happy to find this thread. Big thank you and look forward to more.

As I personally believe that we look for similar qualities in an IEM (an IEM equivalent of the Hifiman Susvara? lol), I shall advice you to give JH Lola another try. Though I personally don't own a pair, Lola IMO is currently the closest thing to perfection. The incoherency you mentioned was somewhat of a design flaw: when the bass is turned all the way down, the 2 bass drivers simply turn off. Therefore, as you mentioned, anything below 75% bass sounds weird and incoherent. But once the bass is turned at or above 75% to match the meaty lower-mids, Lola is simply stunning, though I'd admit that this might be too much bass for some.

VE 8 and VE Erlkonig to me are also near perfect. I look forward to your impressions.
Oh and since you mentioned somewhere in the thread that you are looking for a studio monitor type of sound, you may also want to check out UE18+pro. Incredibly linear sound. Too little emotion to my liking though.

My problem with JH is mostly the bloat that also comes with the bass boost. Notes start getting rounded and basslines start slowing down. I've also heard from people that custom versions are better, but I haven't got to test a custom unit out yet. VE8 is very warm for me, not a fan of how they present that type of warmth. It feels...forced. If not they have great definition in the notes despite the warmth. Rather inoffensive tuning but not for me. The UE18+pro gen3 has an odd type of warmth where the warmth sounds...clinical and sterile? Like UERR. Unfortunately the treble peak is placed where I am most sensitive at. Cymbals are way too sharp. Waiting to test out Erlkonig..

Yep, I concur with the sentiments expressed above there. This thread has been enormously helpful. Thank you so much for your time and effort to record your thoughts so carefully and sharing them here. I feel like I can trust your comments a lot more than some reviews where the only criticism is the choice of latches on the carrying case.

After several years away from HeadFi and gleefully listening to speakers almost exclusively, a new job with an open office and extended commute pulled me back into the Game of Phones. I have spent the past several months haunting e-earphone and Yodobashi Camera. This thread and the Ranking List have really helped target some great earphones.

Just a few side notes to contribute…

1. My experience with the Solaris was similar to yours. I thought I was going to be quickly done with this process when I tried the demo model at e-earphone early on in the hunt. I purchased a second-hand pair, but my experience at home was a bit different than at the store. There was so much to like but the bass extension seemed lacking and some peaky brightness made move on from them. I always feel like I have to live with a pair of phones before I can really get a feel for them, but treble peaks in a demo usually get me to go to another model. I am wondering if there are indeed some sample differences or if my brain just settled in and didn’t care for the final result.

2. The JVC HW10000 don’t move me either. The imaging and sound stage are fantastic and they definitely caught my attention as something special when I first tried them. But the more time I spent time with them, the more I noticed an uneven treble response, an underwhelming bass, and the more they just sounded mid-tier. They do have some serious fans though. As always, YMMV.

3. Boy oh boy, qdc has a superb line-up. I would not really have paid attention to them without this thread and I am so glad I did. I am concerned I will have to deal with the forwardness of the treble in the long run, but the VX were absolutely mesmerizing and I now am waiting on a pair I bought from eBay.

I am hoping to settle on just one pair in the end, but man, I feel like a Berenstain bear trying to buy a new hat. (Spoiler Alert) He is at least able to walk out happily with his old hat. I was content with the Dorados or 335DWs for the odd occasion I wanted to listen to earphones, but now I have heard so many amazing individual aspects that I feel like I can’t settle until I find that unicorn pair that includes them all. Le sigh.



I hope this wasn’t a thread highjack. It all seemed to fit. Again, thank you for all the great work. I do hope you can keep it up!

Thanks. Waiting on the new qdc hybrid. Wonder how they will tune their first hybrid. Solaris is technically speaking quite a nice iem. Notes are big (which is what people like) and layering and separation is definitely solid. It falls short with its tone which can be very strident and dry for me. If not bass implementation is ok (not the best; it does have a little bloat) and gives it some oomph which is what people may look from the andro. Different iems really.

@toranku i know this is an old post but can you tell me which tips did you use to demo? thank you

The stock sony silicones or final E. Usually final E tips

 

[491326]

Erlkonig

imo Erlkonig is miles ahead of anything I've ever heard iem-wise. Its precision and resolution is way way way way way way more than any iem I've ever heard. It is the first iem that actually sounds revealing to me instead of just sharp in the treble. It borders on the resolution of a midtier 2 channel system imo. Spatial cues are so precise and correct sounding. Parts of the track that sound wrong will definitely sound wrong but it's not unpleasant. Forget the A18t, this is the real resolution monster.

I really hope you can compare the Erlkonig with the Hidition Violet cause I'm hearing a lot of good things about the Violet and hope that it could be a cheaper (relatively) alternative

(I may be overhyping the Erlkonig, but I was just absolutely shocked on my first listen)

 

[Edric Li]

My problem with JH is mostly the bloat that also comes with the bass boost. Notes start getting rounded and basslines start slowing down. I've also heard from people that custom versions are better, but I haven't got to test a custom unit out yet.

IMO the slow bass you hear in JH IEM is a testament to their bass extension and no-gimmick tuning. Subbass is supposed to be slow. Usually IEM doesn't have much to offer blow 50Hz, hence sounds quick. There are, however, IEMs that offers deep bass without the slowness: they achieve this with a muted midbass, e.g. N5005, UM Mentor.

JH, on the other hand, offers plenty of midbass to achieve a solid imaging and weighty notes. Their bass drivers, depended on the model, are capable of reaching well blow 50Hz. If you turned the bass up, you run the risk of muddying the entire bottom-end due to the meaty mid-bass. Bass turned all the way up is definitely a no-no (which was unfortunately how you were able to demo the Roxanne.) There is a sweet pot, a perfect subbass-to-midbass ratio. You have to play with the dial to find it.

VE8 is very warm for me, not a fan of how they present that type of warmth. It feels...forced. If not they have great definition in the notes despite the warmth. Rather inoffensive tuning but not for me. The UE18+pro gen3 has an odd type of warmth where the warmth sounds...clinical and sterile? Like UERR. Unfortunately the treble peak is placed where I am most sensitive at. Cymbals are way too sharp. Waiting to test out Erlkonig.

You kind of lost me here (for the first time, hehe.) I wonder how you define warmth? Is there a possibility that you perceive soundstage depth as warmth? Or maybe you perceive high-freq sparkle/attack as the definition of the notes? For example, my N5005 has a boosted high that makes the attack of pretty much every instrument, even drum kick, sounds precise, airy and sexy. Yet N5005 is not a great imaging IEM. The instruments are placed where they are supposed to be, but they are not "there".

To me, warm = more bass quantity, and definition = imaging. With that, VE8 is certainly on the warm side, but definitely not the warmest. UE18+pro is no where near being warm. It does have above average soundstage depth. Both of them images well, but I'll give the edge to JH in this department.

imo Erlkonig is miles ahead of anything I've ever heard iem-wise. Its precision and resolution is way way way way way way more than any iem I've ever heard. It is the first iem that actually sounds revealing to me instead of just sharp in the treble. It borders on the resolution of a midtier 2 channel system imo. Spatial cues are so precise and correct sounding. Parts of the track that sound wrong will definitely sound wrong but it's not unpleasant. Forget the A18t, this is the real resolution monster.

I really hope you can compare the Erlkonig with the Hidition Violet cause I'm hearing a lot of good things about the Violet and hope that it could be a cheaper (relatively) alternative

(I may be overhyping the Erlkonig, but I was just absolutely shocked on my first listen)

That's exactly how I feel too. I've heard it in at least three occasions. Every time feels like the first time. Erlkonig is like the Hugo 2 of IEM: massive, rich, authoritative and full of emotion.
I really wish I had the chance to compare Erlkonig and a recabled Lola side-by-side. The two are similarly tuned, with the VE being brighter and the JH being warmer. IMO it is the type of signature to die for. I expect Lola loses badly in the treble and bass department, but wins in the midrange. iirc Lola should be equally massive, perhaps with even more emotion.

I have not heard the Violet yet, but based on the previous offerings from Hidition (NT6/Pro/Viento), and how they compared to the offerings from VE at the time (VE6), Violet should be no where near Erlkonig's level.

 

[toranku]

IMO the slow bass you hear in JH IEM is a testament to their bass extension and no-gimmick tuning. Subbass is supposed to be slow. Usually IEM doesn't have much to offer blow 50Hz, hence sounds quick. There are, however, IEMs that offers deep bass without the slowness: they achieve this with a muted midbass, e.g. N5005, UM Mentor.

JH, on the other hand, offers plenty of midbass to achieve a solid imaging and weighty notes. Their bass drivers, depended on the model, are capable of reaching well blow 50Hz. If you turned the bass up, you run the risk of muddying the entire bottom-end due to the meaty mid-bass.

You kind of lost me here (for the first time, hehe.) I wonder how you define warmth? Is there a possibility that you perceive soundstage depth as warmth? Or maybe you perceive high-freq sparkle/attack as the definition of the notes? For example, my N5005 has a boosted high that makes the attack of pretty much every instrument, even drum kick, sounds precise, airy and sexy. Yet N5005 is not a great imaging IEM. The instruments are placed where they are supposed to be, but they are not "there".

To me, warm = more bass quantity, and definition = imaging. With that, VE8 is certainly on the warm side, but definitely not the warmest. UE18+pro is no where near being warm. It does have above average soundstage depth. Both of them images well, but I'll give the edge to JH in this department.

That's exactly how I feel too. Erlkonig is like the Hugo 2 of IEM: massive, rich, authoritative and full of emotion.
I really wish I had the chance to compare Erlkonig and a recabled Lola side-by-side. The two are similarly tuned, with the VE being brighter and the JH being warmer. IMO it is the type of signature to die for. I expect Lola loses badly in the treble and bass department, but wins in the midrange. iirc Lola should be equally massive, perhaps with even more emotion.

I have not heard the Violet yet, but based on the previous offerings from Hidition (NT6/Pro/Viento), and how they compared to the offerings from VE at the time (VE6), Violet should be no where near Erlkonig's level.

I personally feel that subbass should be as fast as possible whilst rendering the distinct basslines out. But you're also right that a lot of rolled off bass iems render subbass too quickly. Either that or iems tend to have a very bloated midbass which can overshadow the sub.

Warmth to be is well...warmth. I actually had trouble explaining warmth to a coworker. Hard to describe what it sounds like but easy to describe what causes it. Too much warmth without proper balance will blunt/round the notes and cause them to lose definition in the entire spectrum. The attack will turn bloated and undefined. Imaging to me is more of positional cues. Something with good imaging will place instruments further apart and distinct from each other. Something can be blunted and yet have good imaging. It can happen the other way around as well.

Looking forward to try Erlkonig...

 

[491326]

That's exactly how I feel too. I've heard it in at least three occasions. Every time feels like the first time. Erlkonig is like the Hugo 2 of IEM: massive, rich, authoritative and full of emotion.
I really wish I had the chance to compare Erlkonig and a recabled Lola side-by-side. The two are similarly tuned, with the VE being brighter and the JH being warmer. IMO it is the type of signature to die for. I expect Lola loses badly in the treble and bass department, but wins in the midrange. iirc Lola should be equally massive, perhaps with even more emotion.

I have not heard the Violet yet, but based on the previous offerings from Hidition (NT6/Pro/Viento), and how they compared to the offerings from VE at the time (VE6), Violet should be no where near Erlkonig's level.

I haven't heard the Lola yet, but I get the feeling that the Erlkonig's technical prowess is a combination of excellent signature as well as really low cancellation between each of its thirteen drivers or something like that. It made the other iems I tried that day sound smeared by comparison, the ve8, z1r, and qdc gemini couldn't stand up to its sense of realism (tho, ve8 and gemini were both demos for customs so maybe there's a difference.) the bass presence on it was amazing as well, I heard notes that I'd never noticed before in my music. I'm really sad that I will probably never get one due to my love of customs and that it costs way way way way way too much

 

[Edric Li]

Imaging to me is more of positional cues. Something with good imaging will place instruments further apart and distinct from each other. Something can be blunted and yet have good imaging. It can happen the other way around as well.

I see. We really define imaging differently. What you call imaging is what I call separation+timber.

To me, an IEM can give great positional cue (by delivery excessive 7k-10k) yet still be poor at imaging; an IEM can give great separation (possibly due to using a good cable) yet still be poor at imaging. Imaging gives an instrument its "body", as if you not only can hear it, but also can see it (hence the word image.) A great image of an instrument needs no positional cure. It is independent of where the instrument is being place. It is about the shape, the thickness, the "body" of the instrument. A good imaging IEM usually depicts a deep and wide soundstage, sufficient to place and present the full "bodies" of all the instruments.

IMO imaging is probably the hardest quality to evaluate about an IEM. I personally need very quite listening environment to hear. And once you hear it, you'll hear it forever. The best imaging IEM I've heard to date is the JH Layla and Roxanne. They are rather dark sounding, hence less emphasis on timber, hence less positional cue. But the vividness of the bodies of the instrument they depict is sublime.

 

[Gu Sensei]

What DAP are you using?

What is in my signature there. For quick listens in store, I cycle through a demo playlist on my iPhone through the ES100, and then for more extended demos, I use higher quality tracks on the Valoq. Use the Sony in my office for more serious sessions with IEMs.

Any comments on the VX's staging? I've read the Gemini's stage is its weakness (relatively).

The staging sounded good to me, but that is usually not a big deal unless it feels disjointed. I did prefer it to what the Flamenco had and was going back and forth on those two primarily at the time. I am sure that toranku can describe it much more accurately and eloquently than I.

Also, did you find the VX's bass to actually be better than the Solaris' bass despite the difference in implementation (BA vs DD respectively)?

I felt the Solaris did not go as deep into subbass as I would prefer. It was more of a minor quibble than a dealbreaker. Otherwise, I was satisfied with the Solaris bass though I wouldn't object to a little more quantity. VX has BA type bass but it is really good and seemed to extend to a satisfying depth. I only tried it with all the switches in the off position but I suspect I will be turning on the bass switch when I get it. I would prefer it to be a DD implementation (better yet, a direct import from the Hyla TE5B) but I really have no complaints. I was totally happy with the VX bass. Again, I would defer to what toranku can add. Also, try asking this in the qdc thread, probably you will find someone who has both.

 

[issuzark]

Actually it doesnt have to be exactly like the 334. If it has forward vocals, but with better imaging, soundstage, depth and layering the better

Is there really anything with better mids than the 334 though

 

[Love Music]

Is there really anything with better mids than the 334 though

I guess not. But maybe a slight decrease in mids and better in everything else that the 334 is not as good at?

 

[issuzark]

I guess not. But maybe a slight decrease in mids and better in everything else that the 334 is not as good at?

From what I was told, that's the Oriolus Oriolus. Sadly I can only have a go in June.

 

[Love Music]

From what I was told, that's the Oriolus Oriolus. Sadly I can only have a go in June.

I do have the Oriolus mkii but i feel its still different...still good though.

 

[Edric Li]

Is there really anything with better mids than the 334 though

Just so you know Togo 334 is a product from 2012. For reference, K3003 was from 2011 and se846 was from 2013. It is very unlikely that no IEM today are all around better than 334. I personally can think of so many that I don't where should I begin with to recommend. It's like if you ask me what IEM has better resolution than SEM6 - I can't list you *everything*.

 

[crinacle]

To me, an IEM can give great positional cue (by delivery excessive 7k-10k) yet still be poor at imaging; an IEM can give great separation (possibly due to using a good cable) yet still be poor at imaging. Imaging gives an instrument its "body", as if you not only can hear it, but also can see it (hence the word image.) A great image of an instrument needs no positional cure. It is independent of where the instrument is being place. It is about the shape, the thickness, the "body" of the instrument. A good imaging IEM usually depicts a deep and wide soundstage, sufficient to place and present the full "bodies" of all the instruments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereo_imaging

The term "imaging" is a shortened from "stereo imaging" and is defined by positional cues, also used in the 2-channel world to determine proper speaker placement.

It is about the shape, the thickness, the "body" of the instrument.

These effects are due to tonality and timbre.